Right Livelihood, business in meat

[marc108]

I have been wondering about the details of no business in meat but can't seem to find any Suttas with details.
Would this include the owner of a restaurant that sells cooked meat dishes, or is it meant specifically for those selling and slaughtering live animals?

Thanks all

[LonesomeYogurt]

I believe that most people include raising animals for slaughter, slaughtering, butchering, and selling meat as wrong livelihood; it is not necessarily improper to buy meat and cook it for customers, but I think it's definitely one of the less wholesome livelihoods out there.

[Annapurna]

Yep. Raising animals with the intention to sell them to a slaughterhouse and slaughtering them is wrong livelyhood.

Being a farmer is not so good, expecially when you are not growing stuff organically, = without the use of insectides.

[Hanzze]

I have been wondering about the details of no business in meat but can't seem to find any Suttas with details.
Would this include the owner of a restaurant that sells cooked meat dishes, or is it meant specifically for those selling and slaughtering live animals?

Thanks all

Business (Wrong Livelihood)

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human** beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."

** I am not sure if just Human is right here as it is "satta" which incl. animals.
Satta => Satta2 [cp, Vedic sattva living being, satvan "strong man, warrior," fr. sant] 1. (m.) a living being, creature, a sentient & rational being, a person

I guess this are good chosen words "should not engage" even some scholars may say its just something on the selling/trader side. Seller and buyer are not different from each other and involved in a trade. Costumer and Company for examply is something that seems to be different but actually is not.

If one would have a business with bones, maybe a bones processing fabric to produce soap, he would be engaged in business with animals as well as business in meat. Maybe even in business with weapons and business with poision (depending on which kind of soap he produces)

How ever, from the raw to the fine. What ever one is aware of and has seen by him self. We might get pulled down, seeing the results of globalisation and chaotic interdependency caused by outsourcing of the unbeautiful.

[Hanzze]

Yep. Raising animals with the intention to sell them to a slaughterhouse and slaughtering them is wrong livelyhood.

So you think that just raise them to sell them would be ok?

[Annapurna]

I don't know, it probably depends on the circumstances and outcome.

Like, when you sell a foal to have it living with people who want to sit on it's back, for sports, it would not be so problematic. (Obviously inspired by Ben's foal.... )

I watched a documentayr abot Haflinger this week, where they were breeding a high class version of this horse, and a good foal is just as expensive as a good car, like 50 000 €.

It's an intelligent, healthy and eager horse.

They say they WANT to learn and train new things so badly they get jealous of horses which are taken to lessons before them.

It speaks for the owners and trainers very much that the horses are enjoying their work so much they can't wait to go!

I think that's how it should be and how we should treat our winged and hoofed friends.

But a think the calf of a cow has another destiny and raising it---it's always exploitation for some species, Ausbeutung, and as such problematic.

Your thoughts, Hanzze?

[Annapurna]

Fot those of you who've never seen a Haflinger, here's a pretty one.

White long mane and tail are typical.

[Hanzze]

I don't know, it probably depends on the circumstances and outcome.

Like, when you sell a foal to have it living with people who want to sit on it's back, for sports, it would not be so problematic. (Obviously inspired by Ben's foal.... )

So to sell them as a fun object will be OK?

I watched a documentayr abot Haflinger this week, where they were breeding a high class version of this horse, and a good foal is just as expensive as a good car, like 50 000 €.

It's at least much more enviromental gentle, so maybe a good invest. 100 PS for simply just one.

But a think the calf of a cow has another destiny and raising it---it's always exploitation for some species, Ausbeutung, and as such problematic.

You can ride and make sport and have fun with it as well. Cow, rabbit, or here the buffalo



The price is curently by about $ 500,- (two yearly incomes from ricefaming without other side traidings) which is somehow equal to the car for a normal person in Europe or US.

So what are your current thoughts about Ausbeutung (depletion) - better maybe: use or gaining profit (sensual) - of animal in selling them? Better to sell and buy cars?

Of cause it does not go along business with meat, but business with satta (incl.animals) is how ever business with satta. Humans are also mostly just sold other mans fun or what ever use, not only to get the meat from them.

[Annapurna]

Hanzze, I am aware of the situation of animals, be it for slaughter, as a pest, or as a companion and (sports-) friend.

An animal's existance is a sad one, for more than one reason, and there was a reason why the being was born into a deprived situation and perhaps think of what Buddha said to Angulimala, when he complained about people treating him badly.

That doesn't mean we should abuse and beings, but that we keep in mind, there is a reasion and a purpose for everything that happens to us and others.

No cause without effect.

This is also no lack of compassion, just a lack of passion, at least for me.

I am just a sober realist, who also harbours a few little dreams, still.

I can only change myself.

Not others.

Do you think you can change others....?

[Hanzze]

I don't think so, I am just able to abstain to use them as much as possible especial if it is simply for pleasure. Did I change you? If not, I wasted again some unnessesary energy. So I better think about it that it was not wasted.

Do I use you when I use you to learn? But I guess I am out of "business in meat" now.

[Hanzze]

Do you know Pferdeleberkäse (German Pferd = horse), which is indeed made of horse meat, otherwise not widely consumed in the German language area. Popular in Vienna, Austria.

Actually very tasty.

Horse meat was long time a "poor mans food" as it was not taken by others as regard as taboo. A death horse was some (vulture) food for the poor. ( Today its a gourmet food and a run of it from calory conscious and health conscious people. Foal meat is a very tender meat.

Interesting to read: horse meat on wiki especial "Attitude of various cultures"

[Annapurna]

I don't think so, I am just able to abstain to use them as much as possible especial if it is simply for pleasure. Did I change you? If not, I wasted again some unnessesary energy. So I better think about it that it was not wasted.

Do I use you when I use you to learn? But I guess I am out of "business in meat" now.

Did I change you?

Not that I know of.

If not, I wasted again some unnessessary energy.

Well, the only effective way to teach someone is to wait until he or she genuinely asks.

Then the hearer is interested and receptive, like an empty cup. Otherwise, we may be *preaching to the choir*, -or to someone who isn't receptive. That indeed would be a waste of time, although well intended....

Do you know the famous Zen story:"The empty cup"?

You can google it, I's rather not link to it here as we are discussing Theravada.

I am sure there is a Theravada equivalent, which I am only not aware of.

[Annapurna]

Do you know Pferdeleberkäse (German Pferd = horse), which is indeed made of horse meat, otherwise not widely consumed in the German language area. Popular in Vienna, Austria.

Actually very tasty.

Horse meat was long time a "poor mans food" as it was not taken by others as regard as taboo. A death horse was some (vulture) food for the poor. ( Today its a gourmet food and a run of it from calory conscious and health conscious people. Foal meat is a very tender meat.

Interesting to read: horse meat on wiki especial "Attitude of various cultures"

Na klar kenn ich a Leberkäsweckla...aber net vom Gaul!

I know a Leberkäsweckla, but not from a horse!

[Hanzze]

Like to try it?

[Annapurna]

Why, do you want to bring some by?