Abortion

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Abortion

Post by Mahabrahma »

Anyway, everyone, I say this from the bottom of my heart to everyone here. Have the Right View with regards to abortion.

Being a taker of life or encouraging someone to do the same and approve of it is a grave sin.
Monks, one possessed of three qualities is put into Purgatory according to his actions. What three? One is himself a taker of life, encourages another to do the same and approves thereof. Monks, one possessed of three qualities is put into heaven according to his actions. What three? He himself abstains from taking life, encourages another to so abstain, and approves of such abstention.
-Anguttara Nikaya, 3.16
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Inedible »

Abortion is just a concept. It isn't even real until something happens to make it relevant to you or someone you know. If that happens, you are either a participant in the situation or an observer. Only participants need to decide on an opinion. The rest of us, and I'm thinking that is almost everyone here, should just be grateful that we don't have to get involved in the fight over abortion. We have enough problems as it is just trying to work our own path.
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StrivingforMonkhood
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Re: Abortion

Post by StrivingforMonkhood »

It is interesting to note how I was so harshly judged as "pro-abortion" because I don't believe that anyone can ultimately control another person's body. Sorry, but you cannot, no matter how immoral you may deem their actions. People need to stop letting emotion instead of reason get a hold of themselves. Just as violent as you saw my posts for supposedly justifying the killing of unborn children (which I did not), I saw terrible violence in seeing a woman being forced to give birth against her will to an unwanted child (government, prison guards, etc.). In the end, if a woman is hellbent on ending her pregnancy, she will do so. Also, women have no obligation at all to share their pregnancy status to begin with. It's not to be public knowledge.

We read into other people's words, as soon as see that they may not be agreeing with us. We have a total lack of wisdom.

Again, if someone wants to kill himself, you ultimately cannot stop the person, even if it might be very immoral.

Just like a woman with child: if she is hellbent on killing herself or unborn child, I ultimately cannot stop her. Bodily autonomy reigns supreme. The body is in her body, not outside of it. That said, there are, however, consequences for all of our actions. And I never said it wasn't killing, or that it was without consequence, even severe (karma). I got a lot of words put into my mouth.

I think all killing is ultimately wrong.

I need to worry about my action, my speech, my "not killing"....not someone else's.

And, no, I do not believe in signing death warrants for capital punishment cases. RGB had probably done so, I imagine.

The reason I re-posted is to show that we all, including myself, need to be careful putting words in other people's mouth. And we also need to be careful that we don't judge others (saying that "you're no Theravada monk", etc.). We can disagree, but we first need to have a clear mind, knowing the facts. And we must disagree with kindness while wishing others happiness (metta).

Finally, I want to emphasize: when we feel the need to judge because of our big egos, we need to first think: I need to worry about my right speech, my right conduct, etc. My being worried about someone else's wrong behavior does nothing to improve my own.

Peace and enlightenment.
Last edited by StrivingforMonkhood on Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
May we all fulfill our deepest wish for happiness

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StrivingforMonkhood
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Re: Abortion

Post by StrivingforMonkhood »

Inedible wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:16 pm Abortion is just a concept. It isn't even real until something happens to make it relevant to you or someone you know. If that happens, you are either a participant in the situation or an observer. Only participants need to decide on an opinion. The rest of us, and I'm thinking that is almost everyone here, should just be grateful that we don't have to get involved in the fight over abortion. We have enough problems as it is just trying to work our own path.
That's a a very wise statement there for sure. :namaste:

It's easy to tell a cancer patient not to be euthanized. Why? Because we are not the dying person. It's not our experience. It doesn't become real until it's us who are dying. In the same vein, it's easy to judge a long-term caretaker of a dying person for not being this or that, but until we have taken care of a dying person, it's best for us to keep our ugly mouths shut.

We need to be concerned first and foremost with our own morality - not the immorality of others. We must stay focused on our "practical" world, as it applies to our real-life experiences -- not imagined or hypothetical ones.
May we all fulfill our deepest wish for happiness

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Inedible
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Re: Abortion

Post by Inedible »

Thank you for saying so. It seems like a lot of people here enjoy fighting over theory. A lot of what I read doesn't seem to be intended to be helpful or practical. I had the impression it would be good to get caught up on my studying well enough to know what to copy and paste when.
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Re: Abortion

Post by DooDoot »

Inedible wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:16 pm Abortion is just a concept.
But its not a concept. It is a form of bodily action.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Inedible
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Re: Abortion

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Are you admitting to something? I'm not good at subtle hints.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Abortion

Post by Mahabrahma »

People can't just do whatever they want because they're falsely in control of their own bodies. It's a sad subject, but most abortion is murder, and we can't let people go around murdering other people. The mother does not own her child, the child has a consciousness of it's own, and a baby can't consent to being killed. Neither can anyone else really. Remember the precept. No killing. Stay with Buddhist ideas and ideals, or you will be misguided and fall into a ditch of the 21st century where people justify murdering children for money for the sake of argument and not wanting to be wrong.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Inedible »

In that I was mostly certain of being infertile prior to having had a vasectomy, I am unlikely to be responsible for an abortion. I don't even know anyone who is considering having an abortion. So just a concept at this time. If anyone here knows of a specific unborn child who may be aborted in the near future, please speak up. Otherwise it is also just a concept for everyone else here.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Mahabrahma »

Inedible wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:48 am In that I was mostly certain of being infertile prior to having had a vasectomy, I am unlikely to be responsible for an abortion. I don't even know anyone who is considering having an abortion. So just a concept at this time. If anyone here knows of a specific unborn child who may be aborted in the near future, please speak up. Otherwise it is also just a concept for everyone else here.
Worldwide
-More than 1.5 BILLION babies have been aborted worldwide in the past 50 years.
-An estimated 50 million abortions are carried out throughout the world every year.[ii]
-One in five pregnancies worldwide end in abortion.[iii]
-Approximately 90% of Down syndrome babies are aborted worldwide.[iv]
-42% of all yearly deaths in the world are from abortion.[v]
-Every two seconds a baby is aborted - every time your heartbeats a baby dies. [vi]
-Baby girls are a particular target of abortion: at least 100 million girls have already been wiped out through gendercide - the deliberate targeting of baby girls for abortion.[vii]
-In 2011 the Wall Street Journal reported that 163 MILLION babies were aborted simply because they were girls. They called it "The war against girls." [viiib][


Source: https://thelifeinstitute.net/learning-c ... he-numbers

Abortion is the largest threat facing mankind, according to Mother Theresa.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Inedible »

Fundie Christians have been trying to change the laws to restrict abortion for decades. It is working, but it is still going to be a long time before it goes back to just coat hangar abortions that the woman will be lucky to survive. Unless you are already an Arhat, you have better things to do. Not even Buddha can do that for you, and there are already enough people working on the abortion thing. This is the trouble with Samsara. There are always going to be important things you can put ahead of your path.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Inedible »

If they get the other 10% of Down Syndrome babies then the condition can finally become rare. Or would you prefer they sterilize current carriers?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Abortion

Post by Ceisiwr »

Inedible wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:18 am If they get the other 10% of Down Syndrome babies then the condition can finally become rare. Or would you prefer they sterilize current carriers?
Sounds eugenic-like thinking.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Abortion

Post by Ceisiwr »

StrivingforMonkhood
We need to be concerned first and foremost with our own morality - not the immorality of others. We must stay focused on our "practical" world, as it applies to our real-life experiences -- not imagined or hypothetical ones.
We also live in a society and as laymen participate in that society. Society needs laws. We have laws against killing other human beings.
It is interesting to note how I was so harshly judged as "pro-abortion" because I don't believe that anyone can ultimately control another person's body. Sorry, but you cannot, no matter how immoral you may deem their actions.


You do not understand how human rights and laws work it seems. By this argument, we can have no laws against theft or murder.

People need to stop letting emotion instead of reason get a hold of themselves.
"Reason is the slave of the passions". I do find it amusing how you paint your position as being the rational one and one like mine as being "emotional". As I have already said, if you subscribe to the Dhamma and human rights then to be logically consistent you should oppose abortion both on a personal level and on a societal level in terms of laws.

Just as violent as you saw my posts for supposedly justifying the killing of unborn children (which I did not), I saw terrible violence in seeing a woman being forced to give birth against her will to an unwanted child (government, prison guards, etc.). In the end, if a woman is hellbent on ending her pregnancy, she will do so. Also, women have no obligation at all to share their pregnancy status to begin with. It's not to be public knowledge.
Indeed. Some people are also hellbent on theft even if there are laws against it. However, laws do act as a deterrent for most people.

Again, if someone wants to kill himself, you ultimately cannot stop the person, even if it might be very immoral.
False equivalence. Suicide is the killing of oneself. Abortion is the killing of another human being.
Just like a woman with child: if she is hellbent on killing herself or unborn child, I ultimately cannot stop her. Bodily autonomy reigns supreme. The body is in her body, not outside of it. That said, there are, however, consequences for all of our actions. And I never said it wasn't killing, or that it was without consequence, even severe (karma). I got a lot of words put into my mouth.
But the state can stop her, just like how it can try to stop theft. The woman cannot use her bodily autonomy to violate the rights of another human being.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Abortion

Post by Inedible »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:39 am Sounds eugenic-like thinking.
Most parents want their children to be healthy, smart, happy, compassionate, and friendly. They want their children's lives to be a step up from their own. I don't like children and even I don't want them to be born with genetic defects. If we could fix them, it would be different. For now the best solution is to stop spreading Down Syndrome.

When HIV was new there was an idea to test as many people as possible. Identify all the carriers, put them on antiviral drugs, and keep them from having unprotected sex.

When I looked at my family I saw that there were too many problems and not enough virtues. Many of them were genetic, but most of them were mental and emotional. Deciding not to have children and pass it on was the best choice I have ever made. My brother had one even after he had genetic testing done, but as far as I know he didn't do it again.

Big trends in the world happen when lots of people individually make concrete choices. Or fail to make them. If we could choose for other people, things would be much worse than they already are. The term for that is Sharia Law. I hope I spelled that correctly because those people are dangerous.
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