Coffee, Chocolate and the 5th Precept

[Mkoll]

Good. So drugs are okay? Drugs don't go against the precept not a single bit? Substances that affect one's mind are completely fine?

[Image]

Your strawman meme is itself a strawman argument. These weren't strawman arguments that I posted, they were questions, which you seem to have tactfully avoided.

I didn't answer your questions seriously because, like you seriously comparing caffeine and crystal, they're absurd and don't merit a serious answer.

I'm using the pharmacological definition of drug dependence, not the psychological one. One is drug-dependent when there is the appearance of withdrawal symptoms upon cessation of regular use. It has nothing to do with clinging or heedlessness—it's just a physical phenomenon. If you had to take opioids for extreme pain, you could become dependent on them—whether you liked them, disliked them, or didn't care, you could still become dependent on them.

It turns out human beings have psychological mechanisms and we aren’t just molecules and atoms reacting with each other.

Gee, tell me more!

Finally, the "wakeful" or "knowing" state of mind that Buddhist teachers talk about is a way of directing the mind and approaching one's experience. So in that sense, one can be "wakeful" even if drowsy. Ajahn Chah apparently once stayed up 8 days straight without eating. I'm sure his body was more tired than the tiredness of any caffeine withdrawal, but he was "wakeful."

I didn't mean 'mindful', I meant 'wakeful', as in the very common word and the opposite of 'drowsy'.

OK.

Does it, for everybody, 100% of the time?

No, it doesn’t. That is why I have mentioned 'medium to large doses' a significant number of times. Like with most posts from the recent pages, the knee-jerk reactions seems to blur out key parts of opposing posts.

How vague. And again, how can you know if even a medium to large dose, however much that is, will cause the hindrance of restlessness to arise in someone? What if they're an adept practitioner? What if they're an arahant?

Like with most posts from the recent pages, the knee-jerk reactions seems to blur out key parts of opposing posts.

I actually think carefully about the words I post and go back over them, editing them if needs be. That could hardly be considered a knee-jerk reaction. Again, you presume too much—seems to be a pattern in this anti-caffeine crusade of yours.

You also didn't address all the points in my previous post...

[jagodage]

Dear friends

Having gone through the previous comments by Dhamma Friends I would like to air my views on above topic.First I wish to go through the 5 steps of creating Karma Patha of 5th precept.

1 Having the knowledge creating ability of heedlessness of the intended chemical.
2 Acquiring such such a chemical.
3 Intention of consumption such chemical.
4 Consumption of such a chemical.
5 Loss of heedlessness as a result.

To create a full karimic effect all the 5 steps should be fulfilled.

What I think is to apply the rule of thumb.

With Metta

[samseva]

I didn't answer your questions seriously because, like you seriously comparing caffeine and crystal, they're absurd and don't merit a serious answer.

I would just like to say something regarding this, which you basically took something I said and have been misrepresenting and blowing it out proportion for the last 3 or so posts.

Here is what I wrote, before the spur of comments—I bolded the context and the parts of the sentence which you either ignored or simply left out:

[...] but in a way,... you could say that...large doses of caffeine...would have very similar effects as low doses...of methamphetamine,... or other drugs in the same category [stimulants].

[Mkoll]

I didn't answer your questions seriously because, like you seriously comparing caffeine and crystal, they're absurd and don't merit a serious answer.

I would just like to say something regarding this, which you basically took something I said and have been misrepresenting and blowing it out proportion for the last 3 or so posts.

Here is what I wrote, before the spur of comments—I bolded the context and the parts of the sentence which you either ignored or simply left out:

[...] but in a way,... you could say that...large doses of caffeine...would have very similar effects as low doses...of methamphetamine,... or other drugs in the same category [stimulants].

What that chopped up mess is supposed to represent beyond what you've already said, I have no idea. I've already said in my very first post in this thread that the sympathomimetic effects (which most, if not all, stimulants possess to varying degrees) may be similar. Guess you ignored that. Beyond them, it is an absurd comparison.

[Mkoll]

At this point, I vote we stop this quarrel as it is no good for either of us. We have already made our respective points clear. Let's agree to disagree, shall we?

[samseva]

At this point, I vote we stop this quarrel as it is no good for either of us. We have already made our respective points clear. Let's agree to disagree, shall we?

I agree on both points.

Cheers.

[Dhamma_Basti]

I think the main reason why we are allowed to consume coffeine in monasteries lies in the fact that buddhism, contrary to other indian traditions such as jainism, deals with the conventions of a society in a rather pragmatic way. So while there is some ground to argue that coffeine basicly is not so great due to it's addictive potencial, yet the fact that it is not rejected by the society and widely seen as something that causes no harm makes it acceptable for the tradition. If coffeine was never accepted by the society, the tradition would not actually encourage anybody to do so. Thats what I believe.

Also on my retreats I stay away from coffeine as it distracts me in my meditation. At home however, especially when working a lot, I am strictly addicted to black tea. ^^ On my long course I saw some of the senior pracititioners sneaking into the kitchen and drinking coffee as early as 4am in order to boost the meditation (of course this was not forbidden). Seems as if positions on this question can vary a lot.

[Gwi]

Surā = liquor
merayå = fermented liquor
(with alcohol or ZERO alcohol)
majjå = Intoxicating substance
(alcohol and drugs/marijuana)

Kafein not included.



Liquor with ZERO ALCOHOL
like as folding paper into cigarettes
Then smoke. This is not a cigarette,
But he smokes.

Alcohol or zero alcohol is MERAYÅ.
Liquor is alcohol.

[DooDoot]

Kafein not included.

Today, possibly the majority of people are addicted to coffee. If you work in an office building, these crazy people rush to get into the elevator first during tea break and rush to the cafe to buy trays of coffee. It seems to be a form of insanity.

For example, i follow one sport and the sports stars are asked to make videos about their houses. 95% of them say the same thing: "This is my favourite thing in my house: my coffee machine". It seems to be madness.

[Gwi]

But, coffee is much better than SODA.
1 soda = +/- 5 spoons of sugar.


I knew it's not good if you drinking
Coffee too much or everyday.

People drink coffee generally
because to relax (lazy time).


Drinking coffee often = unhealthy life.

[DooDoot]

[Aloka]

Ah....nothing beats a nice cup of English tea on awakening.... or live dangerously and have a bowl of porridge!



.

[Alino]

Our cells uses ATP molecules, ATP gives energy to and have 3 "shots" of energy. When these 3 shots are used, ATP becomes a waste. Our cells can detect this waste, and when there is too much of waste - we feel tiredness, in order to prevent over-use.

The coffee (tea?) block these detectors of waste, and cells continue to use ATP without limit (gain of energy). The problem is that our cells have some stock of ATP in case of needs. So cells start to use this extra-stock.

It can cause problems like: chronical fatigue, over use, bad sleep, etc...

[Aloka]

It can cause problems like: chronical fatigue, over use, bad sleep, etc...

.

[samseva]

Surā = liquor
merayå = fermented liquor
(with alcohol or ZERO alcohol)
majjå = Intoxicating substance
(alcohol and drugs/marijuana)

Bhikkhu Bodhi going over the Pāḷi:

The fifth precept reads: Surāmerayamajja-pamādaṭṭhānāveramaṇī-sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi, “I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented and distilled intoxicants which are the basis for heedlessness.” The word meraya means fermented liquors, sura liquors which have been distilled to increase their strength and flavour. The word majja, meaning an intoxicant, can be related to the rest of the passage either as qualified by surāmeraya or as additional to them. In the former case the whole phrase means fermented and distilled liquors which are intoxicants, in the latter it means fermented and distilled liquors and other intoxicants. If this second reading is adopted the precept would explicitly include intoxicating drugs used non-medicinally, such as the opiates, hemp, and psychedelics. But even on the first reading the precept implicitly proscribes these drugs by way of its guiding purpose, which is to prevent heedlessness caused by the taking of intoxicating substances

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel282.html

Kafein not included.

The issue isn't if such-and-such a substance is included, but rather if a fermented (meraya) or distilled (sura) intoxicant (majja) can lead to heedlessness.

In modern times, many drugs wouldn't fall under the fermented (meraya) part of the the precept, but many chemically or naturally distilled substances fall under the distilled (sura) part—which is why things such as heroin, cocaine, LSD and so on fall under the precept (because they are distilled and lead to heedlessness).

Now, whether or not caffeine from coffee is considered an intoxicant that leads to heedlessness is debatable—that it is distilled is factual.