Does anyone feel like it’s an uphill battle at times?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
binocular
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Re: Does anyone feel like it’s an uphill battle at times?

Post by binocular »

Buddho93 wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:24 amJust to clarify I am not criticizing anyone. I don't judge anyone for going out and having a drink with their friends, smoke marijuana or have more than one sexual partner... all of these are common in society and do not mean you are a 'bad person' or incapable of doing good. I just mean that when you are actively restraining yourself from breaking the precepts in order to calm the mind, you can find yourself in somewhat unconducive environments.
I suppose that depends on the extent of one's extroversion.
Extroverted people will probably have more problems when they are trying to do things that the people around them aren't doing.
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Re: Does anyone feel like it’s an uphill battle at times?

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:24 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:35 amPeople should of course be measured regarding any criticism they make of others' behaviour and beliefs, but one does not need to be sotapanna to know that people are in the wrong.

One does not have certainty about the Dhamma until one has certainty about the Dhamma. Until such a point, anything goes.
I don't think it's an "all or nothing" situation. One can know that someone is wrong about aspects of the Dhamma while one lacks certainty about other parts.
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Re: Does anyone feel like it’s an uphill battle at times?

Post by manas »

Buddho93 wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:53 pm Just wondering if anyone else feels like they are surrounded by people who don’t follow the 5 precepts and feel that it’s making the practice so much more difficult than it should be.

I sometimes feel that I’m surrounded by people resorting to drink and drugs, indulging in idle chatter and talking about graphic sexual themes and general divisiveness and selfishness.

I generally don’t have any enmity towards these people as they are my friends, family and colleagues, all of whom I get on with but I do however notice the effect it has on my mind.

Sorry for offloading on here but I just wondered if anyone can relate and has any advice on dealing with being around this sort of thing. Or maybe someone may know a sutta that deals with this.

Kind regards,

Tom 🙏
Hi Tom,

that's not my experience. What others do, has had little effect on what I do. If my mind is in a good place, I can be surrounded by friends & family who care not for the Teachings, drink, etc, yet it makes no difference to my practice. If my mind is in a bad place, I can even be at a Monastery, yet find my mind drifting off to thoughts of sensual indulgence, trying to not look at the attractive young woman sitting nearby, etc.

I take responsibility for my own mind. No one else to blame here.

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Re: Does anyone feel like it’s an uphill battle at times?

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:43 pm
binocular wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:24 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:35 amPeople should of course be measured regarding any criticism they make of others' behaviour and beliefs, but one does not need to be sotapanna to know that people are in the wrong.

One does not have certainty about the Dhamma until one has certainty about the Dhamma. Until such a point, anything goes.
I don't think it's an "all or nothing" situation. One can know that someone is wrong about aspects of the Dhamma while one lacks certainty about other parts.
One either has certainty about the Dhamma, or one doesn't. One cannot be right about some aspects of the Dhamma, but not about others. The rightness or certainty that you talk about above, which can be felt sometimes, is accidental and is faith confused for attainment.
In hindsight, after one has attained stream entry, one may be able to say about some convictions that one had in the past that they were in fact certainty about the Dhamma, but not prior to that.
One either sees the bull elephant, or one doesn't. The marks one has seen on the tree before could be from the bull elephant, or not.
(Apart from hindsight bias, people sometimes also employ projected hindsight bias: "One day, I will be sure about x; and because one day I will be sure about x, I am in fact sure about it now already.")

Anyway, my point to the OP in regard to this is as follows:

For an ordinary person, when there is a large gap between what they have hope or have faith that is true, and what they know that is true, IOW, when there is a large gap between faith and attainment, this is stressful and brings them into conflict with other people (and a host of other troubles). The solution is to minimize that gap and bring one's faith closer to one's actual attainment. This way, one's expectations of oneself and others will be more realistically calibrated and one will set for oneself goals and tasks that one is actually able to do.


(This doesn't apply for the less ordinary person with a big ego, where their big ego can accomodate for the large gap between their faith and their attainment.)
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Re: Does anyone feel like it’s an uphill battle at times?

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:28 pm
One either has certainty about the Dhamma, or one doesn't. One cannot be right about some aspects of the Dhamma, but not about others. The rightness or certainty that you talk about above, which can be felt sometimes, is accidental and is faith confused for attainment.
In hindsight, after one has attained stream entry, one may be able to say about some convictions that one had in the past that they were in fact certainty about the Dhamma, but not prior to that.
One either sees the bull elephant, or one doesn't. The marks one has seen on the tree before could be from the bull elephant, or not.
(Apart from hindsight bias, people sometimes also employ projected hindsight bias: "One day, I will be sure about x; and because one day I will be sure about x, I am in fact sure about it now already.")
This sets the bar very high, at the level of saccanubodhi, or direct awakening to the truth. But although this is relevant to certain types of understanding, it isn't the type of understanding we are discussing here. Look again at the point you made:
I am more baffled by those Buddhists who admit they are not enlightened, who admit they haven't even attained stream entry, but who nevertheless severely criticize the behavior and beliefs of so-called "run-of-the-mill people".
How do those unenlightened Buddhists know that the behavior and beliefs of so-called "run-of-the-mill people" are wrong?
It's quite possible for an unenlightened Buddhist to know that particular behaviours and beliefs are wrong, to a degree of certainty which allows them to criticise others. It's not the case, as you say, that "anything goes" prior to stream entry. It's certainly more correct to say that lying is harmful than it is to say that lying is harmless. A truthful person is justified in criticising a persistent liar, even though neither of them are enlightened. S/he doesn't need to have attained perfect knowledge of all of the Dhamma in order to do that. To think that is just letting the doubting mind take over.

The same applies with regard to our criticism of beliefs. It's not the case that, as you say, "anything goes". It is more correct to say that the Buddha taught the path to nibbana than it is to say that most of his teaching was about supermarket trolleys.

You might want to say that any assertion about the dhamma is invalidated and relativised by the person asserting it not being enlightened, but a claim that another person is wrong doesn't need that degree of certainty. A person who really believed that "anything goes" and that there is only one degree
of certainty would have a fantastic excuse for not practising; that is probably why they might cling to such a belief, but that's another question.
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Re: Does anyone feel like it’s an uphill battle at times?

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I host a sutta discussion via Zoom Sundays at 11AM Chicago time — message me if you are interested
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Re: Does anyone feel like it’s an uphill battle at times?

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Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:15 pmThis sets the bar very high, at the level of saccanubodhi, or direct awakening to the truth.
Not at all. It only sets the bar high as far as patronizing others or being mean to them and believing one is justified to do so, goes.
It's quite possible for an unenlightened Buddhist to know that particular behaviours and beliefs are wrong,
Epistemically, that's like guessing what the result of a mathematical equation is instead of calculating it.
Prior to stream entry, the person is like the blind men and the elephant: the blind men are indeed touching an elephant, but they don't know it as such; they don't know they are touching the elephant. So that person might indeed know some Dhamma, but doesn't know they know Dhamma.
to a degree of certainty which allows them to criticise others.
All one needs to criticize others is an ego. Look: there's no shortage of critics.
It's not the case, as you say, that "anything goes" prior to stream entry.

By "anything goes", I mean one is like the blind men and the elephant.
It's certainly more correct to say that lying is harmful than it is to say that lying is harmless. A truthful person is justified in criticising a persistent liar, even though neither of them are enlightened.
Doing so would go against the principles of who is suitable for being instructed in the Dhamma. And then there is all that about not publicizing another's faults.
S/he doesn't need to have attained perfect knowledge of all of the Dhamma in order to do that. To think that is just letting the doubting mind take over.
No. I'm talking about justified contempt, righteous indignation.
Religious/spiritual people tend to love to criticize others, show them contempt, but more than that: they expect others to accept that, to submit to them. "I'm religious/spiritual, therefore, I am free to despise you, hate you, and you must submit to me."
If religious/spiritual people should be given that right to despise others and others be obligated to accept that, then religious/spiritual people should have the according attainment that justifies that right, instead of just assuming it.

And then the plebeians do the unthinkable: They rise up against the religious/spiritual.
The same applies with regard to our criticism of beliefs. It's not the case that, as you say, "anything goes". It is more correct to say that the Buddha taught the path to nibbana than it is to say that most of his teaching was about supermarket trolleys.

Oh, I think you know very well what I'm talking about.
You might want to say that any assertion about the dhamma is invalidated and relativised by the person asserting it not being enlightened,
No, but their right to despise others is.
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Re: Does anyone feel like it’s an uphill battle at times?

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binocular wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:03 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:15 pmThis sets the bar very high, at the level of saccanubodhi, or direct awakening to the truth.
Not at all. It only sets the bar high as far as patronizing others or being mean to them and believing one is justified to do so, goes.
It's quite possible for an unenlightened Buddhist to know that particular behaviours and beliefs are wrong,
Epistemically, that's like guessing what the result of a mathematical equation is instead of calculating it.
Prior to stream entry, the person is like the blind men and the elephant: the blind men are indeed touching an elephant, but they don't know it as such; they don't know they are touching the elephant. So that person might indeed know some Dhamma, but doesn't know they know Dhamma.
to a degree of certainty which allows them to criticise others.
All one needs to criticize others is an ego. Look: there's no shortage of critics.
It's not the case, as you say, that "anything goes" prior to stream entry.

By "anything goes", I mean one is like the blind men and the elephant.
It's certainly more correct to say that lying is harmful than it is to say that lying is harmless. A truthful person is justified in criticising a persistent liar, even though neither of them are enlightened.
Doing so would go against the principles of who is suitable for being instructed in the Dhamma. And then there is all that about not publicizing another's faults.
S/he doesn't need to have attained perfect knowledge of all of the Dhamma in order to do that. To think that is just letting the doubting mind take over.
No. I'm talking about justified contempt, righteous indignation.
Religious/spiritual people tend to love to criticize others, show them contempt, but more than that: they expect others to accept that, to submit to them. "I'm religious/spiritual, therefore, I am free to despise you, hate you, and you must submit to me."
If religious/spiritual people should be given that right to despise others and others be obligated to accept that, then religious/spiritual people should have the according attainment that justifies that right, instead of just assuming it.

And then the plebeians do the unthinkable: They rise up against the religious/spiritual.
The same applies with regard to our criticism of beliefs. It's not the case that, as you say, "anything goes". It is more correct to say that the Buddha taught the path to nibbana than it is to say that most of his teaching was about supermarket trolleys.

Oh, I think you know very well what I'm talking about.
You might want to say that any assertion about the dhamma is invalidated and relativised by the person asserting it not being enlightened,
No, but their right to despise others is.
The OP was about the difficulties involved in practising among others who do not practice, and so are unsupportive. You seem more interested in some obscure problem about some unspecified Buddhists being severely critical and despising people. It's a common theme in your posts. As I said earlier, anyone being critical in that way should stop doing it, bearing in mind that there is no requirement that one is enlightened before one criticises or instructs others. As there is never any further evidence forthcoming for the circumstances you specify, it's difficult to know what you are talking about.
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Re: Does anyone feel like it’s an uphill battle at times?

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Sam Vara wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:32 pmAs there is never any further evidence forthcoming for the circumstances you specify, it's difficult to know what you are talking about.
As is routinely the case when people persist in ignoring the obvious ...
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Re: Does anyone feel like it’s an uphill battle at times?

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binocular wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:48 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:32 pmAs there is never any further evidence forthcoming for the circumstances you specify, it's difficult to know what you are talking about.
As is routinely the case when people persist in ignoring the obvious ...
But it's not obvious. You return again and again to claim that there is some vague problem with some Buddhists being repressive, demanding, and spiteful, or having authoritarian personalities, etc. But I've never experienced any significant amount of this. Nor have I heard of much of it. Or even read of it, other than in the wilder corners of the internet. You have never instantiated it or offered evidence, and seemingly prefer to leave it at vague generalisations and the claim (as now) that others are blind to what is obvious.

So what is obvious? :shrug:

Not only would I be genuinely interested, there is the possibility that if your thinking in that way were acknowledged, there would be the possibility of considering whether such thinking is beneficial or not.
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Re: Does anyone feel like it’s an uphill battle at times?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

It's. It's a sacrifice.
My neighbours keep killing rats everyday, speaking harshly to each other, indulging in sensual pleasures of all kinds.
Those days I heard they kill a rat and I started to cry. Firstly because I thought about its despair, secondly because I imagined myself as it, thirdly because I thought about the bad kamma they are creating for themselves.

Not just they break precepts but they are noisy, so it's hard to meditate peacefully.

Lay life is really an inappropriate environment for practice. I wish I had resolved to become a monk before COVID-19. :|
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
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not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
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See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
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Re: Does anyone feel like it’s an uphill battle at times?

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rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:13 am It's. It's a sacrifice.
My neighbours keep killing rats everyday, speaking harshly to each other, indulging in sensual pleasures of all kinds.
Those days I heard they kill a rat and I started to cry. Firstly because I thought about its despair, secondly because I imagined myself as it, thirdly because I thought about the bad kamma they are creating for themselves.

Not just they break precepts but they are noisy, so it's hard to meditate peacefully.

Lay life is really an inappropriate environment for practice. I wish I had resolved to become a monk before COVID-19. :|
I hope i can get compassion as yours.

i have compassion of humans but animals is little tough except puppy
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Does anyone feel like it’s an uphill battle at times?

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:13 am Not just they break precepts but they are noisy, so it's hard to meditate peacefully.

Lay life is really an inappropriate environment for practice. I wish I had resolved to become a monk before COVID-19. :|
Try sending them metta with these thoughts: "Thank you, dear neighbours, for giving me this opportunity to practice overcoming hindrances. For showing me where my defilements are strong. May you share in the merit of the practice you create for me. May my practice be of benefit to you and all sentient beings."
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Re: Does anyone feel like it’s an uphill battle at times?

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We are in the age of dhamma decline. It is a difficult path as we are human and prone to make mistakes.
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