Paying taxes and second precept

[sentinel]

Many people never pay taxes , is that violating the second precept ?

[Alīno]

I think in this action more dammage comes from lack of generosity and gratitude. Whe gratitude? Because without taxes there will be no schools, roads, buildings, army to protect country, etc... All this needs money. So better see taxes as investissement and generosity rather "it's my money!", no...it's not your money... And if you are diying of hunger, and very poor, so there is no any state who will tax you, but if you have enought money to eat, to get a roof, to not be sick, and not get hot or cold - all the rest is money for stimulation of 6 senses, and while some one is practicing good, he can gain more pleasure in meditation rather from one of 6 senses, so this money is better to invest in one's own environement, because you can practice meditation while your contry if fall apart and there is civil war or revolution because people suffer to much...

But if i answer the question, Yes i think it's a breaking of 2 precepts. Why? Because you can be arested by police. Also in Russia, after the falling apart of USSR, there was a TV add about taxes who said : "Pay your taxes, and sleep well" I think they was realy concerned about our meditation practice and the benefit from meditation, because while you know that you dont payed taxes and tou can be punished, your meditation is not peacefull, and while there is no peace, there is no clarity, withour clarity there is no wisdom, without wisdom there is freedom... So "Pay your taxes, and awake !"

[DNS]

Many people never pay taxes , is that violating the second precept ?

If one is cheating, then yes, a violation.

If one is legally not paying, then no violation. There are various reasons some legally pay none including; their income is not high enough to reach the bottom bracket, their income is all pension and not taxable, they might be a clergy member who receives no direct salary only housing and meals, and possibly some other reasons.

Even those who pay none, often they pay some not so obvious forms of taxes, including sales taxes when they purchase items at a store, property taxes if they own their own home. And some economists argue that tenants also pay property taxes indirectly in their rent payments (landlords pass on the expense to their tenants).

[sentinel]

...

What about if the government is spending the acquired taxes on a particular race of people , and some people being a minority of the country would think they should not bear all the responsibility and pay all the taxes and hence pay less , why should they be responsible for other race that almost need not to pay taxes at all ?!

[DNS]

What about if the government is spending the acquired taxes on a particular race of people , and some people being a minority of the country would think they should not bear all the responsibility and pay all the taxes and hence pay less , why should they be responsible for other race that almost need not to pay taxes at all ?!

The problem with that is that some might use any excuse not to pay, morally justifying it that way. Even as buddhists, we might use the excuse that it will go to unjustified wars (which is just about all wars). However, most funds are used for social welfare programs, roads, infrastructure, schools, safety nets, etc.

I suppose in a really oppressive regime it might be justified, to use an extreme example some minority being taxed while not being allowed to vote, hold office, or any government position and being relegated to only menial labor, not allowed to attend school or advance economically.

[sentinel]

The problem with that is that some might use any excuse not to pay, morally justifying it that way. Even as buddhists, we might use the excuse that it will go to unjustified wars (which is just about all wars). However, most funds are used for social welfare programs, roads, infrastructure, schools, safety nets, etc.

I suppose in a really oppressive regime it might be justified, to use an extreme example some minority being taxed while not being allowed to vote, hold office, or any government position and being relegated to only menial labor, not allowed to attend school or advance economically.

Probably I could give an example , a friend whom live in a majority of Muslims (75%) country , the government spend probably 80% of the accumulated taxes and spends on building mosques , Islamic schools , subsidized 90% of the particular race students with all the government universities 90 % and some colleges provides 100% of quota seats for the particular race , funding particular race for setting up all sort of businesses by lending them with very low rate and sometimes free of any rental , and they almost never have to repay any money and never have to get any punishment by laws if they never pay back etc etc . Other race that set up a major private listed business , the company need to voluntary give and provide at least 30%of shareholding to particular race , 90% of the collected taxes came from the 20% minority race and the government set up many type of funds for them to place money for very high interest with no risk factor as it is guaranteed by the government .
Just to state a few the list is long .

[dharmacorps]

The second precept is "abstaining from taking that which is not freely given" (at least this is the translation in the tradition I follow). I think there is a way in which you are breaking the 2nd precept if you don't pay taxes you owe, because you are keeping money which the government has a right to collect and doesn't belong to you legally.

More to the point, if you don't pay taxes you owe, the government can and will come after you and take "their" money which is rightfully theirs (by law anyway) by force. Even if maybe not "fair" in the payee's view, there are plenty of places in the canon where the Buddha acknowledges the reality of kings and governments rights to assess taxes. The bad kamma from unfair taxation lies on them, not on us as payers. Just pay your taxes and feel good about the portion of your taxes going to good government programs (schools, roads, healthcare, etc).

[sentinel]

The second precept is "abstaining from taking that which is not freely given" (at least this is the translation in the tradition I follow). I think there is a way in which you are breaking the 2nd precept if you don't pay taxes you owe, because you are keeping money which the government has a right to collect and doesn't belong to you legally.

More to the point, if you don't pay taxes you owe, the government can and will come after you and take "their" money which is rightfully theirs (by law anyway) by force. Even if maybe not "fair" in the payee's view, there are plenty of places in the canon where the Buddha acknowledges the reality of kings and governments rights to assess taxes. The bad kamma from unfair taxation lies on them, not on us as payers. Just pay your taxes and feel good about the portion of your taxes going to good government programs (schools, roads, healthcare, etc).

Following the precept is not taking what is not given , the situation is not paying (or paying less) with a very very sensible reason . As such Buddhism precept look like a set of rigid rite and rituals !
This means we accepted it as kamma ?! Should not one stand up and uphold something what is right ? If someone were to rob you and you don't try to protect your self or fight back against unjust events ?! So , we give way to bad and evil peoples , we don't have any option ?
Just like what the equal rights that many talks about hierarchical structure in Buddhism , say if the Abbot is unjust and disregard of the welfare and safety , the disciples should not have something to say ?

Ps. It is very late for me , so good rest .

[dharmacorps]

Following the precept is not taking what is not given , the situation is not paying (or paying less) with a very very sensible reason .

The problem there is, then it is you--unilaterally-- saying what you think a "very very sensible reason" is for keeping the money is, and that you will spend it "better" than just paying what you, and everyone else in the country, owes. Everyone who refuses to pay taxes based on some principles thinks they have a very sensible argument. Not paying taxes will put you in the much larger camp of a lot of people who just want to keep money for themselves, too.

[sentinel]

Following the precept is not taking what is not given , the situation is not paying (or paying less) with a very very sensible reason .

The problem there is, then it is you--unilaterally-- saying what you think a "very very sensible reason" is for keeping the money is, and that you will spend it "better" than just paying what you, and everyone else in the country, owes. Everyone who refuses to pay taxes based on some principles thinks they have a very sensible argument. Not paying taxes will put you in the much larger camp of a lot of people who just want to keep money for themselves, too.

You are not looking at the situation described above . I am not saying one should not pay taxes at all , but if the government is not fair to a particular race such as previous South Africa before Mandela became president , especially when particular race no need to pay for taxes , then other race appears as some cheap labor that works hard just to feed that particular race .
Probably you don't understand in this situation , it is called daylight robbery , and people tends to protect their belongings .
Anyway , it is not me that not paying taxes , friend are . But I do understand their dilemma .

[chownah]

Some people like to talk about the "greed" of someone who avoids or evades paying taxes. In some/many/most/all governments the taking of taxes is planned, engineered, and implemented by "greedy" people. It breaks my heart to see some "greedy" people avoid and evade the attempts by other "greedy" people to take their money.
chownah

[sentinel]

Some people like to talk about the "greed" of someone who avoids or evades paying taxes. In some/many/most/all governments the taking of taxes is planned, engineered, and implemented by "greedy" people. It breaks my heart to see some "greedy" people avoid and evade the attempts by other "greedy" people to take their money.
chownah

It is not simply about greeds , it is about unfair treatment to certain races in the above example . It is not simply about avoiding taxes , take into consideration that peoples are being oppressed .
Try to have some kindness and compassion .
The fact is 20% of the citizens of one race are paying taxes for 75% of another race to spend is not acceptable ! 20% of the citizens of one race already pays the taxes for over 60 years after independent yet till now in almost every sector's they are being treated unfair and oppressed .
Think about that for a while . Perhaps you could look at Indonesia Chinese and other minority whom at certain times being robbed , killed and raped by other race ! Try to look at the situation in Malaysia where aboriginal ,Chinese and Indian being oppressed !
When Thailand became bankrupt at one time due to politicians swindled , they asked for public to donate to save the country such as monk Maha Boowah led the fund raising , why should the majority with less income peoples bear all the responsibility where the many corrupted politicians easily gets away with their swindled money without punishment ?! What about majority peoples that suffers because of politicians corruptions ?! Who cares ?
If something like topic of Myanmar chasing out the rohingya peoples , why should someone cares ?
And of course , only taxes Matter , the utmost important is to pay taxes or else prepare to face punishment from government laws and certainly Bad karma in the future life because of breaking the precept .
But , luckily I pay taxes all the times . Only many friends of mine whom reside in those countries are sufferings . I am lucky being exempted because my financial is still fine .
Looking back 25 century ago , if one take what is not freely given over 5 coins , they are being punished for death sentence , looking at nowadays situation , I wonder how much evasion of taxes would cause death penalty ? Many tycoons evades taxes using many loopholes yet abide by the law such as reinvestment schemes etc etc . I supposed this at the end not breaking the precept although they are no buddhist at all .
And if one evades taxes , unwholesome kamma not only causing breaking the precept but would result in very bad karma repayment I guess .
But , of course , people might be thinking and mistakenly regard I am as pro taxes evasion or I myself evading taxes which is not the case .

[sentinel]

Perhaps venerable dhammanando could help to answer this question , any difference between not taken what is not freely given as the second precept and not paying taxes ? Or not paying unjust taxes and in many instances people would arrange in a way to pay less by investing again in some other company ? Or Refused to pay because of the unjust treatment as described in above posts ? Does the Buddha says anything in regards to this ? says in a majority of Muslims people country if the government make unjust taxes forcing on Taoist temple , buddhist temple , Hindu temple and the Christian churches but the Islam is exempted from paying taxes , what should the priests or monks do ? None can be done I guess but to follow the terms !?

Thanks

[chownah]

Some people like to talk about the "greed" of someone who avoids or evades paying taxes. In some/many/most/all governments the taking of taxes is planned, engineered, and implemented by "greedy" people. It breaks my heart to see some "greedy" people avoid and evade the attempts by other "greedy" people to take their money.
chownah

It is not simply about greeds , it is about unfair treatment to certain races in the above example . It is not simply about avoiding taxes , take into consideration that peoples are being oppressed .....
.....
,.....

I want to apologize for having used saracasm presented as an english saying. I said "It breaks my heart" which you have taken as being a statement of me having sorrow about people avoiding and evading paying taxes. Since you are not familiar with the peculiar meaning of some phrases when used in english your reaction by taking it as an expression of sorrow is understandable and what one would expect because the term actually does mean sorrow in its usual usage.....but here I am using it as a form of sarcasm in that I am meaning it to be exactly opposite of its usual meaning....that is to say I am saying that it does NOT break my heart or in other words I am saying that it does NOT bother me when they do that.

So....I am to a great extent in agreement with you. Your not understanding my intended meaning is normal and natural given you are not a native english speaker and the misunderstanding has arisen from my lack of understanding or sensitivity to the limitations of people's knowledge of english here on an international forum....this I have compounded by using sarcasm which itself is often misjudged by even native english speakers.

In short, my post conatained an ambiguity which is my doing alone and something which I can not reasonably expect someone else to unravel. I apologize for me having created this misunderstanding and will try to use better judgement in the future.
Sorry,
chownah

[sentinel]

Thanks chownah .