Paying taxes and second precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
santa100
Posts: 6813
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Paying taxes and second precept

Post by santa100 »

sentinel wrote:not paying unjust taxes and in many instances people would arrange in a way to pay less by investing again in some other company ? Or Refused to pay because of the unjust treatment as described in above posts ? Does the Buddha says anything in regards to this ? says in a majority of Muslims people country if the government make unjust taxes forcing on Taoist temple , buddhist temple , Hindu temple and the Christian churches but the Islam is exempted from paying taxes , what should the priests or monks do ? None can be done I guess but to follow the terms !?
Well, paying tax is part of the contract you sign up to live as a citizen of the land. The government might use your money for some unjust cause, but the fact of the matter is that you are still enjoying the many social services and welfares provided by the state, hence illegal tax evasion is indeed a form of stealing, which breaks the 2nd precept. If you can completely 100% exist on your own outside of the system (ie. reject the service of the police when you're being robbed, the army when some foreign country invades yours, firemen to come when your house is on fire, educational assistance for your diploma, various medical assistance programs when you're sick, social welfare programs when you're old, etc...) then yes, you can have the right not to pay any tax.
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Paying taxes and second precept

Post by chownah »

santa100 wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:06 pm
Well, paying tax is part of the contract you sign up to live as a citizen of the land. ......
.....
If you can completely 100% exist on your own outside of the system ........ then yes, you can have the right not to pay any tax.
I have never heard of anyone signing up a contract like this.....I have heard many people talk about these ficticios contract when they try to make you feel guilty about not doing what the gov't wants you to do....in fact there is no contract.....what the gov't does is called "coercion"....which means you are made to do things by punishment or threat of punishment......and there is absolutely no kind of consent involved.

And....no, even if you can live without relying on any gov't "services" you do not have the right (legal right) to not pay any tax.....you will still have your property confiscated (punishment) and you can even be put in jail depending on how you go about not paying taxes (punishment)....but most people know that they will be punished (threat of punishment) so they just go ahead and pay.
chownah
santa100
Posts: 6813
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Paying taxes and second precept

Post by santa100 »

chownah wrote:in fact there is no contract.....what the gov't does is called "coercion"....which means you are made to do things by punishment or threat of punishment......and there is absolutely no kind of consent involved.
Then I'll ask the question again: are you completely 100% exist on your own outside of the system (ie. reject the service of the police when you're being robbed, the army when some foreign country invades yours, firemen to come when your house is on fire, educational assistance for your diploma, various medical assistance programs when you're sick, social welfare programs when you're old, etc...)? If not, then you need to pay for those services. If you don't pay tax, then basically you are committing theft on those government services, which is a violation of the 2nd precept (with the exception of one on long term disability and has no job, or one does have a job but is below the poverty line), plain and simple.
And....no, even if you can live without relying on any gov't "services" you do not have the right (legal right) to not pay any tax.....you will still have your property confiscated (punishment) and you can even be put in jail depending on how you go about not paying taxes (punishment)....but most people know that they will be punished (threat of punishment) so they just go ahead and pay.
Religious institutions and monastics don't have to pay tax. But then you need to prove to the government that you don't own any any thing like private property and/or possessions.
sentinel
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Paying taxes and second precept

Post by sentinel »

santa100 wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:59 pm Religious institutions and monastics don't have to pay tax. But then you need to prove to the government that you don't own any any thing like private property and/or possessions.
Hi santa , probably you are not aware of some country , if devotees donate to the temple of different tradition , the temples or churches have to pay taxes such as the example given above . Bcuz the country government were made up by majority Muslims , their mosques with donations gather do not have to pay due to the rules set up by them . They have the says .
Minority have no say on it .
You always gain by giving
santa100
Posts: 6813
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Paying taxes and second precept

Post by santa100 »

sentinel wrote:Hi santa , probably you are not aware of some country , if devotees donate to the temple of different tradition , the temples or churches have to pay taxes such as the example given above . Bcuz the country government were made up by majority Muslims , their mosques with donations gather do not have to pay due to the rules set up by them . They have the says .
Minority have no say on it .
Unfortunately, there's no perfect system. Here in America, religious institutions do not pay tax and many corrupted religious leaders take advantage of that. You've probably heard about those US televangelists who line their own pockets without having to pay a dime. They fly private jets that cost millions and still don't have to pay because technically those are the "church's properties". And this is a global problem, you probably also heard about that jet-setting monk Luan Pu Nen Kham's story too.
User avatar
Alīno
Posts: 701
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: Paying taxes and second precept

Post by Alīno »

If your friends are Buddhist and have Right View, they can see being born as oppressed minority in unfair country it as result of their previous kamma... And humbly accept.
There is no such thing as "unfair" in Samsara...

Many of our bad actions in speach body and mind are rooted in this Wrong View of "unfairness". We think we are a good person, so we don't understand why people act badly with us... So we become a bad person and reacts with bad deeds giving these people a reason to continue to act badly towards us. People and gods loves goodness, they can not harm someone who they know to be harmless, it's like doing harm to a harmless kitty or baby, so while people see that while they are aggressive with you, but you are gentle with them, they stop to be aggressive...

While we follow 5 precepts, nothing bad can happen to us as result of these actions. So our duty is to keep them regardless of "unfairness" of our past kamma results...

As it said:
How peoples acts on us is their kamma
How we react on it is our kamma.
Last edited by Alīno on Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Paying taxes and second precept

Post by chownah »

santa100 wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:59 pm
chownah wrote:in fact there is no contract.....what the gov't does is called "coercion"....which means you are made to do things by punishment or threat of punishment......and there is absolutely no kind of consent involved.
Then I'll ask the question again: are you completely 100% exist on your own outside of the system (ie. reject the service of the police when you're being robbed, the army when some foreign country invades yours, firemen to come when your house is on fire, educational assistance for your diploma, various medical assistance programs when you're sick, social welfare programs when you're old, etc...)? If not, then you need to pay for those services. If you don't pay tax, then basically you are committing theft on those government services, which is a violation of the 2nd precept (with the exception of one on long term disability and has no job, or one does have a job but is below the poverty line), plain and simple.
You have put up an excerpt of my post and then made a reply which has nothing to do with the excerpt. What I said there is that there is no contract like the one you assert exists....noone at any time agrees to a contract between themselves and the gov't. The contract which you imagine exists (but actually does not) is just an attempt to make people think that they have bound THEMSELVES in a way to do the gov't's bidding by agreeing to it. The actual fact is that people (if they think about this at all) evaluate what the gov't requires of them in an ongoing basis and evaluate whether the benefits and punishments will be met with continued compliance or not.

Secondly, as to your response (which had nothing to do with the exerpt you seem to be replying to): Your previous post in this exchange asserted that if someone could live without any gov't assistance then they would not have to pay taxes.....I pointed out that this is completely wrong....even if you live without gov't services you still are legally required to pay taxes. Sentinel has done a good job of showing how your idea is wrong with respect to religious institutions. Given what sentinel has shown, are you saying that those religious institutions he mentions can simply not pay their taxes?.......of course they might try this but then the coersive threat of punishment (the laws which state that if you don't pay taxes what will happen) would quickly change to coersive punishment (the actual consequences state in the law come to fruition....usually confiscation of property, paying fines, and sometimes incarceration). It's the same in the US too only the laws are a bit different. Also notice that originally your discussion was in terms of individuals while now you have changed it to institutions.....you have moved the goal posts.
chownah
santa100
Posts: 6813
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Paying taxes and second precept

Post by santa100 »

chownah wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:52 am You have put up an excerpt of my post and then made a reply which has nothing to do with the excerpt. What I said there is that there is no contract like the one you assert exists....noone at any time agrees to a contract between themselves and the gov't. The contract which you imagine exists (but actually does not) is just an attempt to make people think that they have bound THEMSELVES in a way to do the gov't's bidding by agreeing to it. The actual fact is that people (if they think about this at all) evaluate what the gov't requires of them in an ongoing basis and evaluate whether the benefits and punishments will be met with continued compliance or not.

Secondly, as to your response (which had nothing to do with the exerpt you seem to be replying to): Your previous post in this exchange asserted that if someone could live without any gov't assistance then they would not have to pay taxes.....I pointed out that this is completely wrong....even if you live without gov't services you still are legally required to pay taxes. Sentinel has done a good job of showing how your idea is wrong with respect to religious institutions. Given what sentinel has shown, are you saying that those religious institutions he mentions can simply not pay their taxes?.......of course they might try this but then the coersive threat of punishment (the laws which state that if you don't pay taxes what will happen) would quickly change to coersive punishment (the actual consequences state in the law come to fruition....usually confiscation of property, paying fines, and sometimes incarceration). It's the same in the US too only the laws are a bit different. Also notice that originally your discussion was in terms of individuals while now you have changed it to institutions.....you have moved the goal posts.
chownah
Those are meaningless talks and proves nothing more than diversion tactic. I will repeat my question a third time since you have been continuously dodging it: are you completely 100% existing on your own outside of the system (ie. reject the service of the police when you're being robbed, the army when some foreign country invades yours, firemen to come when your house is on fire, educational assistance for your diploma, various medical assistance programs when you're sick, social welfare programs when you're old, etc...)? If not, then you need to pay for those services. If you don't pay tax, then basically you are committing theft on those government services, which is a violation of the 2nd precept (with the exception of one on long term disability and has no job, or one does have a job but is below the poverty line). It doesn't get any more simple than this, you just cannot do 2 things at the same time: eating the cake and complaining about having to pay the vendor who sold you that cake.
sentinel
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Paying taxes and second precept

Post by sentinel »

Nwad wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:49 am If your friends are Buddhist and have Right View, they can see being born as oppressed minority in unfair country it as result of their previous kamma... And humbly accept.
There is no such thing as "unfair" in Samsara...
I wonder if you could refer me any sutta said so ?
E.g. says if one is lazy in this life , the company release him her from duty , is this previous life karma that person becomes jobless ? Or is it the person whom own the company has bad karma because hired a lazy person ?
Another example , says a country president gives shelter , citizenship and give pardon to a terrorist of another country because they both share the same religion , is this a good karma of the terrorist ? And then supposing the country president use his power to influence the judiciary system to punish a person of different religion and different political ideology , is the person whom being punished and oppressed is because of bad karma ?
You always gain by giving
User avatar
greenjuice
Posts: 285
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:56 pm

Re: Paying taxes and second precept

Post by greenjuice »

Nwad wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:49 am If your friends are Buddhist and have Right View, they can see being born as oppressed minority in unfair country it as result of their previous kamma... And humbly accept.
There is no such thing as "unfair" in Samsara...
An awful thing to say, lacking of compassion, even fundamentally denying of metta and karuna, because if everything is fair and as it should be, then we ought to never feel compassion or help people. Which is of course a ludicrous and evil view.

Also a nonsensical to say, being that it denies actions of people. Not everything that happens to a person is a result of their past kamma, it can also be a result of other people's present actions. If everything which happens to me were to be result of my past actions, and a lot of things which happens to me is what other people do - that denies actions of those other people. But that also applies to other people - if everything which happens to them were to be result of their past actions, and some of the things which happens to them is what i do - that denies my actions. So we end up in a nonsensical loop which denies action, and thereby denies fruits of actions, negating the loop itself. And yes, Buddha did speak against such a nonsensical view:

"There are brahmans & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a person experiences — pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful — that is all caused by what was done in the past.'

Having approached the brahmans & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.'

Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those brahmans & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views."

Also in another Sutta:

"There are some brahmans & contemplatives who are of this doctrine, this view: Whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was done before. Now what does Master Gotama say to that?"

[The Buddha:] "There are cases where some feelings arise based on bile. You yourself should know how some feelings arise based on bile. Even the world is agreed on how some feelings arise based on bile. So any brahmans & contemplatives who are of the doctrine & view that whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was done before — slip past what they themselves know, slip past what is agreed on by the world. Therefore I say that those brahmans & contemplatives are wrong."

"There are cases where some feelings arise based on phlegm... based on internal winds... based on a combination of bodily humors... from the change of the seasons... from crooked care of the body... from harsh treatment... from the result of actions (kamma). You yourself should know how some feelings arise from the result of kamma. Even the world is agreed on how some feelings arise from the result of kamma. So any brahmans & contemplatives who are of the doctrine & view that whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was done before — slip past what they themselves know, slip past what is agreed on by the world. Therefore I say that those brahmans & contemplatives are wrong."
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6492
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Paying taxes and second precept

Post by Dhammanando »

sentinel wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:29 am Perhaps venerable dhammanando could help to answer this question, any difference between not taken what is not freely given as the second precept and not paying taxes?
I don't find this an easy question to answer.

On the one hand, for bhikkhus the Vinaya makes it a defeating offence of theft to smuggle goods into a country in order to avoid payment of customs duties. I think we can infer from this that the Buddha acknowledges the right of rājās to impose taxes and the obligation of citizens to pay them.

On the other hand, the suttas exhort rājās not to tax exorbitantly and to use the tax revenue to help the needy, provide for national defence, etc. and not for their personal aggrandizement.

So, in cases where an unrighteous rājā is taxing exorbitantly or where much of the tax revenue is being devoted to improper ends, can we say that he thereby forfeits his authority to tax and that anyone who withholds payment from him will not be in breach of the second precept? I don't know.

:shrug:
sentinel wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:29 amProbably I could give an example, a friend whom live in a majority of Muslims (75%) country, the government spend probably 80% of the accumulated taxes and spends on building mosques, Islamic schools,
80% of the tax revenue is spent on mosques? Are you quite sure? This doesn't sound like a believable figure even for the six remaining Islamic theocracies, let alone semi-secularized nations like Malaysia and Indonesia.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
User avatar
greenjuice
Posts: 285
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:56 pm

Re: Paying taxes and second precept

Post by greenjuice »

Dhammanando wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:31 amOn the other hand, the suttas exhort rājās not to tax exorbitantly and to use the tax revenue to help the needy, provide for national defence, etc. and not for their personal aggrandizement.
This sounds nice, could you point to the Sutta(s) where this is said?
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Paying taxes and second precept

Post by chownah »

Dhammanando wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:31 am

On the one hand, for bhikkhus the Vinaya makes it a defeating offence of theft to smuggle goods into a country in order to avoid payment of customs duties. I think we can infer from this that the Buddha acknowledges the right of rājās to impose taxes and the obligation of citizens to pay them.
It seems likely to me that the buddha didn't want monks to take on the hobby of smuggling which would of course create huge problems for the sangha.....and also the rule itself would signal to the gov't that if this did occur it was not something that was being ignored or even sanctioned. Also, the robes they wear could certainly hide alot of contraband and additionally the border authorities were probably hesitant to search under a monk's robes I guess....don't know for sure....
chownah
Last edited by chownah on Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Alīno
Posts: 701
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: Paying taxes and second precept

Post by Alīno »

Dear topic starter,

If before starting the topic you've already made your decision to not pay taxes, why do you ask our opinion and feel upset while we discourage you to not paying taxes?

If you, or your friend, are OK to not paying taxes - it's up to you. Our duty, as friend in birth seekness and death, is to explain you dangers of that unwholesome action rooted in greed hatred and delusion. So if you are not happy with our compassionate warnings - it's up to you to doing as you wish. But not be upset, and not find it "unfair" while results of that action will be ripe...

I repeat :
How people act with us is their kamma
How we react on it is our kamma

Compassion is friendliness toward those who suffer, what is the worst suffering rather greed hatred and delusion? We should be compassionate toward our aggressors. Why? Because they are burning alife ! But if it's not our "race" of beings, it's ok to see them burning... isn't it?... See burning all who are not our race, all our aggressors, it's what you want? And what about Buddha saying that all beings was our mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters in previous lives, you will burn them too?

People have too much concern about their bodies, about pleasures of 6 senses... You don't want to pay taxes because you die without food, without roof or clothes? No... You don't want to pay taxes because you want to satisfy your 6 senses, more and more... because you listen what Mara say you, you don't listen to the Dhamma and peace of your heart. So do as you wish, it's your kamma... If suffering of greed Hatred and Delusion that you experiance already here and now is not enought and you want more greed more hatred and more delusion - you know what to do, but don't ask us what we think about it.

With compassion... Be compassionate to yourself, just let it be as it is... there is so many things we can't change... I used to be a rebel too, but each time it became worst for me, and each time I let it be, I played down this burden, and felt so ease and happy :)
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Paying taxes and second precept

Post by chownah »

santa100 wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:03 am
chownah wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:52 am You have put up an excerpt of my post and then made a reply which has nothing to do with the excerpt. What I said there is that there is no contract like the one you assert exists....noone at any time agrees to a contract between themselves and the gov't. The contract which you imagine exists (but actually does not) is just an attempt to make people think that they have bound THEMSELVES in a way to do the gov't's bidding by agreeing to it. The actual fact is that people (if they think about this at all) evaluate what the gov't requires of them in an ongoing basis and evaluate whether the benefits and punishments will be met with continued compliance or not.

Secondly, as to your response (which had nothing to do with the exerpt you seem to be replying to): Your previous post in this exchange asserted that if someone could live without any gov't assistance then they would not have to pay taxes.....I pointed out that this is completely wrong....even if you live without gov't services you still are legally required to pay taxes. Sentinel has done a good job of showing how your idea is wrong with respect to religious institutions. Given what sentinel has shown, are you saying that those religious institutions he mentions can simply not pay their taxes?.......of course they might try this but then the coersive threat of punishment (the laws which state that if you don't pay taxes what will happen) would quickly change to coersive punishment (the actual consequences state in the law come to fruition....usually confiscation of property, paying fines, and sometimes incarceration). It's the same in the US too only the laws are a bit different. Also notice that originally your discussion was in terms of individuals while now you have changed it to institutions.....you have moved the goal posts.
chownah
Those are meaningless talks and proves nothing more than diversion tactic. I will repeat my question a third time since you have been continuously dodging it: are you completely 100% existing on your own outside of the system ..............)? If not, then you need to pay for those services. If you don't pay tax, then basically you are committing theft on those government services,
If you are asking about me personally then the answer is that what I do or don't do has no bearing on the discussion and I will not go off topic with you by answering this question.

In the US if you don't pay taxes you are not stealing. Gov't services are not assigned values as they are services provided by the gov't with no charge...althought there are some services which the gov't does charge for but I don't think if one goes afowl of these laws that one will be charged with theft unless one actually steals some physical object....certainly however when it is prosecuted it would have nothing to do with tax status. If you don't pay taxes you have committed the crime of tax evasion or perhaps tax fraud or something similar....it is never prosecuted as "stealing".

I think your replies have just been nothing more than diversion tactics to avoid addressing the points I have brought up namely 1. there is no contract between citizens and the gov't as you falsly claim, 2. even if one is living independently of the gov't that fact does not in and of itself exempt one from paying taxes, and 3. not paying taxes due is NOT stealing, it is tax evasion or tax fraud or something similar and never as being stealing.
chownah
Post Reply