lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 7424
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by Sam Vara »

alfa wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:26 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:04 am lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?
Of course. Those are the things that the Buddha did before becoming enlightened.
I don't think he lied. It's very unlikely that he watched porn in any format. More importantly, he didn't do these things while trying to attain enlightenment.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8980
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightenment?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:04 am Please let me know

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightenment?
Unwholesome kamma (actions) is the cause of the five hindrances (AN 10.61). The five hindrances are hindrances to progress. There are degrees of unwholesomeness that create the hindrances to progress. For example, lying & watching porn are far more unwholesome that hearing music or play games. Watching porn is not much different to consorting with prostitutes because the mind soaks in the unwholesomeness that destabilises & pollutes the clarity of mind required for clear seeing.
Even so, Rāhula, of anyone for whom there is no shame at intentional lying, of him I say that there is no evil he cannot do.

https://suttacentral.net/mn61/en/horner
corrupted too with prostitutes—
that’s the way to disaster’s woe.

https://suttacentral.net/snp1.6/en/mills
Lying, watching porn, hearing music, playing games are not compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightenment.

Regards :ugeek:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:00 am, edited 4 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Polar Bear
Posts: 1310
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
Location: Bear Republic

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by Polar Bear »

While I’m no authority on establishing an effective habit elimination “diet” conducive to enlightenment, only lying breaks a precept in your list. Obviously watching porn signifies a significant lack of restraint though. And in my experience certain kinds of music lead directly away from the desire to develop calm and good habits. And I’d say violent video games are not conducive to delighting in non-violence, but I don’t see how chess would be an obstacle.

The suttas would encourage you to look at your actions in body, speech, and mind and see which ones cultivate passion, aversion, and delusion and which cultivate their opposites. Then eliminate the actions which cultivate the unwholesome roots and cultivate the opposite to whatever extent you’re able and willing.

I think a lot of the practice is pretty straightforward stuff, but the mind (at least mine) is fickle and defiled so we don’t wind up doing the sorts of things we’re fairly confident would be helpful as much as we should if we’re really serious.

For me a forum such as this provides access to useful resources, some interesting and at times insightful comments, and the ability to exercise ones textual knowledge, if nothing else to pass the time doing something that is at least pretty neutral in terms of how it effects the defilements. This is assuming you find the threads centered around fruitless arguing a waste of time. Also just associating with dhamma even in somewhat removed ways such as this forum provide some minimal inclination of the mind towards it, whereas visiting a forum dedicated to, say, science fiction, does not provide even such a weak inclination towards dhamma. But basically I agree with previous posters that you shouldn’t be looking at Buddhist forums for the seed of wisdom that’s going to inexorably lead you to awakening, for that I believe you gotta look at your mind and actually do stuff that often you might not feel inclined to do, such as resisting unwholesome cravings and developing wholesome long-term habits.

Oh, I’d also suggest that a fixation on stream entry might even be missing the point (in some cases). It could signify that one just wants some guarantee, a sense of safety, an ability to rest on one’s laurels rather than a willingness to develop the desire, motivation, and unrelenting persistence to actually purify the mind.

Good luck :soap:

Some cursory reading on the offering of advice suggests that we often give advice to feel a sense of superiority (which obviously isn’t a dharmic motivation) and furthermore that giving advice almost never works, rather modeling does, I.e. practicing over preaching. An Internet forum does not provide an opportunity to noticeably model good dhamma practice except for modeling some aspects of right speech, albeit written speech. So this is all further evidence suggestive of the inability of an Internet forum to be a significant factor in furthering ones embodiment of the dhamma. And therefore I advise you seek other avenues to wisdom :soap: :tongue:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/bl ... ice-givers

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... works-does


:anjali:
Last edited by Polar Bear on Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
SteRo
Posts: 3566
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: अ धीः

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by SteRo »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:03 am
SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:52 am
mikenz66 wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:04 pm ... Personally, I just assume anyone posting here is as undeveloped as I am - ...
I don't think it's wise to cultivate conceit. The fact that conceit is abandoned not before the end of the path does not mean that cultivating conceit does not undermine progress on the path towards that end.
Perhaps I should reword my position then. I don't consider anonymous posters on internet forums to be my teacher, since I can have no confidence that they have any particular knowledge or insights. Anyone who implies that they do confirms my lack of confidence.
But that's it again. It is not a matter of "they have" or "they don't have" it's only a matter of whether words are perceived as helpful, not helpful or even harmful and what appears to be helpful, not helpful or even harmful is not even an inherent quality of the words in question.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by binocular »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:04 pmYes, this is a problem if you take seriously any such claims from people you don't know well personally.
No, not at all.
It's not about knowing or not knowing someone personally.

It's about having no clear idea of what "spiritual attainment", "spiritually advanced" is supposed to look like to begin with.

Throughout history, all kinds of human behavior have been proposed as "spiritually advanced"; different religions/spiritualities have vastly different ideas of what "spiritually advanced" means. That's the issue.

Famous teachers lied, had sex orgies with their students, used drugs, were involved in financial scandals, even murder, everyone knew about it -- and still those people have been promoted as "spiritually advanced".

There are religions, and some not far from here, where even killing is sometimes conceptualized as "compassionate".

For some people, "spiritually advanced" is not mutually exclusive with drinking alcohol, having sex, etc. In fact, if anything, it's part of the popular belief about what "enlightenment" is all about. There's plenty of people who believe that abstaining from alcohol and sex only makes you a weak prude.

On account of what can you claim that those people are wrong, that their idea of "spiritually advanced" is wrong?


Without having some clear idea of what "spiritually advanced" means, what it's supposed to look like in a person's behavior, or without commitment to a particular concept of what "spiritually advanced" means, it makes no difference whether one knows someone personally or not, one still won't be able to tell whether that person is "spiritually advanced" or not.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:38 amI don't think he lied. It's very unlikely that he watched porn in any format. More importantly, he didn't do these things while trying to attain enlightenment.
Not to mention specific names, but I know people, some of them consider themselves Buddhists, who believe that what is written in the Pali Canon about enlightenment is obsolete and has been surpassed. And that, among other things, working for a living, alcohol, and sex are not inconsistent with enlightenment.

So on account of what can one say that they are wrong?

On account of what should one prefer something claimed by an ancient tradition, and thus risk ostracism from modern society?

One's gut feeling? One's self-confidence? How does that make one different from all those modern "spiritually advanced" people?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 17930
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by mikenz66 »

SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:03 pm But that's it again. It is not a matter of "they have" or "they don't have" it's only a matter of whether words are perceived as helpful, not helpful or even harmful and what appears to be helpful, not helpful or even harmful is not even an inherent quality of the words in question.
OK then. Good luck.
:heart:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 17930
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by mikenz66 »

binocular wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:45 pm On account of what can you claim that those people are wrong, that their idea of "spiritually advanced" is wrong?
There's some practical advice in the suttas:
“Bhāradvāja, take the case of a mendicant living supported by a town or village. A householder or their child approaches and scrutinizes them for three kinds of things: things that arouse greed, things that provoke hate, and things that promote delusion.
..
https://suttacentral.net/mn95/en/sujato#29
Notice that it's not about finding the prospective teacher to seem witty or charismatic or super-knowledgeable.

:heart:
Mike
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by binocular »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:07 pmNotice that it's not about finding the prospective teacher to seem witty or charismatic or super-knowledgeable.
IOW, you're simply taking the authority of the suttas for granted.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 23298
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
binocular wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:19 pm IOW, you're simply taking the authority of the suttas for granted.
When one has taken refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, that seems very sensible IMO.

After all, how can anyone take refuge in that which they're not actually taking refuge in, on account of doubt, suspicion, paranoia or superficial trivialities about appearance, charisma etc.?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 17930
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by mikenz66 »

binocular wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:19 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:07 pmNotice that it's not about finding the prospective teacher to seem witty or charismatic or super-knowledgeable.
IOW, you're simply taking the authority of the suttas for granted.
Well, there's some other advice there too:
"If a person has faith, they preserve truth by saying, ‘Such is my faith.’ But they don’t yet come to the definite conclusion: ‘This is the only truth, other ideas are silly.’ If a person has a preference … or has received an oral transmission … or has a reasoned reflection about something … or has accepted a view after contemplation, they preserve truth by saying, ‘Such is the view I have accepted after contemplation.’ But they don’t yet come to the definite conclusion: ‘This is the only truth, other ideas are silly.’ That’s how the preservation of truth is defined, Bhāradvāja. I describe the preservation of truth as defined in this way. But this is not yet the awakening to the truth.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn95/en/sujato#28
You are right. There is no way of being sure in advance.

:heart:
Mike
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by binocular »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:29 pmWhen one has taken refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, that seems very sensible IMO.
And on the grounds of what does one take refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 7424
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:55 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:38 amI don't think he lied. It's very unlikely that he watched porn in any format. More importantly, he didn't do these things while trying to attain enlightenment.
Not to mention specific names, but I know people, some of them consider themselves Buddhists, who believe that what is written in the Pali Canon about enlightenment is obsolete and has been surpassed. And that, among other things, working for a living, alcohol, and sex are not inconsistent with enlightenment.

So on account of what can one say that they are wrong?

On account of what should one prefer something claimed by an ancient tradition, and thus risk ostracism from modern society?

One's gut feeling? One's self-confidence? How does that make one different from all those modern "spiritually advanced" people?
One can say they are wrong on account of the scriptures, and on account of the fact that those people don't seem to be enlightened themselves, and on account of one's own experiences of moving in the right direction.

As for the ostracism angle, I've never experienced any significant amount, despite my adherence to an iron age Indian master whose teachings I don't even properly understand...
Last edited by Sam Vara on Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 23298
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings binocular,
AN 10.92 wrote:"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy & rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.'

"He is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.'
Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: lie, watching porn, hearing music, playing games compatible with trying to attain first stage of enlightment?

Post by binocular »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:30 pmWell, there's some other advice there too:
"If a person has faith, they preserve truth by saying, ‘Such is my faith.’ But they don’t yet come to the definite conclusion: ‘This is the only truth, other ideas are silly.’ If a person has a preference … or has received an oral transmission … or has a reasoned reflection about something … or has accepted a view after contemplation, they preserve truth by saying, ‘Such is the view I have accepted after contemplation.’ But they don’t yet come to the definite conclusion: ‘This is the only truth, other ideas are silly.’ That’s how the preservation of truth is defined, Bhāradvāja. I describe the preservation of truth as defined in this way. But this is not yet the awakening to the truth.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn95/en/sujato#28
So Sujato translates that word as "silly".
Laugh of the day! Yay!
:toast:

You are right. There is no way of being sure in advance.
At least up until stream entry, the whole "practice" is an act of faith, or of self-confidence, as the case may be. Living with some semblance of peace of mind about this fact seems to be the main challenge.

Obviously, not for those who overbrim with self-confidence. For them such challenges are silly.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Post Reply