Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
luigiman
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Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Post by luigiman »

I jog everyday and teach children how to play basketball. There are some insects on the path where I jog and on the basketball court, and I’m sure we unintentionally kill a few of them. We live in a place where there are lots of trees and forests so it would be difficult to get rid of bugs. Am I violating the first precep?
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DooDoot
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Re: Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Post by DooDoot »

No...................................
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Kim OHara
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Re: Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Post by Kim OHara »

.........because intention is the heart of the precept.

:namaste:
Kim
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confusedlayman
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Re: Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Post by confusedlayman »

luigiman wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:03 pm I jog everyday and teach children how to play basketball. There are some insects on the path where I jog and on the basketball court, and I’m sure we unintentionally kill a few of them. We live in a place where there are lots of trees and forests so it would be difficult to get rid of bugs. Am I violating the first precep?
next time u should avoid the place why? u know ur presence can hurt beings when playing, not doing jogging or basketball will not lead to termination of ur life and it can be replaced. hence knowing that there can be unintentional damage to beings which can be seen and known will count as killing next time if im not wrong. if im wrong pls correct me

U can clear the path where u play and keep an account of any inscet in sight and clean the place

U might not be intentioanlly killing while playing but its better to clean and play to minimize or stop interaction of ur body and inscet so unintentionally also u wont kill.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Post by Ceisiwr »

luigiman wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:03 pm I jog everyday and teach children how to play basketball. There are some insects on the path where I jog and on the basketball court, and I’m sure we unintentionally kill a few of them. We live in a place where there are lots of trees and forests so it would be difficult to get rid of bugs. Am I violating the first precep?
You only break the first precept if you intentionally kill or intentionally get another to kill.
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood.”


Dhotakamāṇavapucchā
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DNS
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Re: Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Post by DNS »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:18 pm next time u should avoid the place why? u know ur presence can hurt beings when playing, not doing jogging or basketball will not lead to termination of ur life and it can be replaced. hence knowing that there can be unintentional damage to beings which can be seen and known will count as killing next time if im not wrong. if im wrong pls correct me

U can clear the path where u play and keep an account of any inscet in sight and clean the place

U might not be intentioanlly killing while playing but its better to clean and play to minimize or stop interaction of ur body and inscet so unintentionally also u wont kill.
That sounds like the Jain view. Some devout Jains will sweep the path in front of them to avoid accidentally killing insects. That is not the Buddhist view, which focuses on intention. The Jain practice would make it impossible to do most householder chores, including driving, building homes, etc. If you've ever driven in a hot, humid area on a freeway before, you've probably noticed the front of the car and windshield full of splattered bugs.
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Re: Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Post by confusedlayman »

DNS wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 4:22 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:18 pm next time u should avoid the place why? u know ur presence can hurt beings when playing, not doing jogging or basketball will not lead to termination of ur life and it can be replaced. hence knowing that there can be unintentional damage to beings which can be seen and known will count as killing next time if im not wrong. if im wrong pls correct me

U can clear the path where u play and keep an account of any inscet in sight and clean the place

U might not be intentioanlly killing while playing but its better to clean and play to minimize or stop interaction of ur body and inscet so unintentionally also u wont kill.
That sounds like the Jain view. Some devout Jains will sweep the path in front of them to avoid accidentally killing insects. That is not the Buddhist view, which focuses on intention. The Jain practice would make it impossible to do most householder chores, including driving, building homes, etc. If you've ever driven in a hot, humid area on a freeway before, you've probably noticed the front of the car and windshield full of splattered bugs.
no its not.

If there is fly or inscet in ur toilet, will u flush or rescue the inscet out of toilet and flush? anyway ur intention is to flush and u know there is inscet hence even if u flesh to clear the excrement, u will still have awareness of killing inscet and u could have taken other step. similarly in a garden if playing leads to killing of life because we fear we will stamp them, better dont play in the garden.

buddha told not to dig ground as it kills many organism even though the intention is to dig for other purpose. Jain view is different. they dont kill microbes because they think microbes and plant has conciousness.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Post by salayatananirodha »

i do admit difficulty in understanding this. i've read in the vinaya where mahā moggallāna wanted to dig into the ground without harming bugs and the buddha advised him not to because it would cause them to lose their minds. not saying, of course, that everything in the vinaya is appropriate for laypeople to live by, but it obviously gives us more insight on what actions can be harmful. i've been considering how driving vehicles is likely or inevitable to harm bugs and then also bigger creatures. it's not the same as intentionally running them down, no, but isn't it negligent. say you see a bug in your bathtub. shouldn't you divert the water or rescue the thing, rather than let it drown? if someone could clear this up for me without the tired 'we're not jain' reaction i would appreciate it
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


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Re: Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Post by salayatananirodha »

salayatananirodha wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 7:20 pm i do admit difficulty in understanding this. i've read in the vinaya where mahā moggallāna wanted to dig into the ground without harming bugs and the buddha advised him not to because it would cause them to lose their minds. not saying, of course, that everything in the vinaya is appropriate for laypeople to live by, but it obviously gives us more insight on what actions can be harmful. i've been considering how driving vehicles is likely or inevitable to harm bugs and then also bigger creatures. it's not the same as intentionally running them down, no, but isn't it negligent. say you see a bug in your bathtub. shouldn't you divert the water or rescue the thing, rather than let it drown? if someone could clear this up for me without the tired 'we're not jain' reaction i would appreciate it
what about cutting the grass; seems pretty brutal
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


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https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
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altar
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Re: Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Post by altar »

i take on faith more or less that lawn mowing is allowable.
wholesome/un? i couldn't say.
but my neighbor has a hand held push mower - no electricity no gas - thinking of buying one. $100- $150.
luigiman
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Re: Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Post by luigiman »

DooDoot wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:03 pm No...................................
Kim OHara wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:12 pm .........because intention is the heart of the precept.

:namaste:
Kim
DNS wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 4:22 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:18 pm next time u should avoid the place why? u know ur presence can hurt beings when playing, not doing jogging or basketball will not lead to termination of ur life and it can be replaced. hence knowing that there can be unintentional damage to beings which can be seen and known will count as killing next time if im not wrong. if im wrong pls correct me

U can clear the path where u play and keep an account of any inscet in sight and clean the place

U might not be intentioanlly killing while playing but its better to clean and play to minimize or stop interaction of ur body and inscet so unintentionally also u wont kill.
That sounds like the Jain view. Some devout Jains will sweep the path in front of them to avoid accidentally killing insects. That is not the Buddhist view, which focuses on intention. The Jain practice would make it impossible to do most householder chores, including driving, building homes, etc. If you've ever driven in a hot, humid area on a freeway before, you've probably noticed the front of the car and windshield full of splattered bugs.
I appreciate your answers. But to this day I'm still confused on what the right thing to do is.

Like confusedlayman said, it is not my intention to kill these insects but at the same time I know that we would inevitably killing some of them.

Having said that, you can also say that a monk would walk outdoor and they too are aware that they might be killing bugs when walking. You may say there's a much bigger chance of killing insects playing sports than walking but if that monk really wants to prevent stepping on an insect he should just be exercising at home.
luigiman
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Re: Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Post by luigiman »

DooDoot wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:03 pm No...................................
Kim OHara wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:12 pm .........because intention is the heart of the precept.

:namaste:
Kim
DNS wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 4:22 pm

That sounds like the Jain view. Some devout Jains will sweep the path in front of them to avoid accidentally killing insects. That is not the Buddhist view, which focuses on intention. The Jain practice would make it impossible to do most householder chores, including driving, building homes, etc. If you've ever driven in a hot, humid area on a freeway before, you've probably noticed the front of the car and windshield full of splattered bugs.
I appreciate your answers. But to this day I'm still confused on what the right thing to do is.

Like confusedlayman said, it is not my intention to kill these insects but at the same time I know that we would inevitably be killing some of them while playing for an hour or two.

Having said that, you can also say that a monk would walk outdoor and they too are aware that they might be killing bugs when walking. You may say there's a much bigger chance of killing insects playing sports than walking but if that monk really wants to prevent stepping on an insect he should just be exercising at home.

EDIT:
Another daily activity where killing would be inevitable is driving or travelling in general.
Last edited by luigiman on Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Post by Kim OHara »

luigiman wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:26 am Like confusedlayman said, it is not my intention to kill these insects but at the same time I know that we would inevitably be killing some of them while playing for an hour or two.

Having said that, you can also say that a monk would walk outdoor and they too are aware that they might be killing bugs when walking. You may say there's a much bigger chance of killing insects playing sports than walking but if that monk really wants to prevent stepping on an insect he should just be exercising at home.
The bottom line is that just by choosing to live rather than die right now, we have all chosen to kill living beings every single day of our lives.
There is no such thing as a vegan diet, since the production of fruit and vegetables requires the killing of insect pests however hard we might try to avoid that. Transporting that food kills more. Eating it deprives other animals of sustenance, and they die.
Get used to it.
We have no choice about whether we kill animals in our daily life. Our only choice is whether or not we reduce unnecessary suffering as much as we reasonably can.
And that is a balancing act. Work it out as you go, but it's mixed kamma all the way.

:namaste:
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Re: Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

Kim OHara wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:25 am
We have no choice about whether we kill animals in our daily life. Our only choice is whether or not we reduce unnecessary suffering as much as we reasonably can.
And that is a balancing act. Work it out as you go, but it's mixed kamma all the way.

:namaste:
Kim
:twothumbsup:

If the intention is pure, I don't think the kamma is mixed. If we are truly honest with ourselves and know there was no intention to kill, it's ok to relax in the knowing that your virtue on that front is intact. The benefit of sila is a blameless mind.
luigiman
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Re: Unintentionally killing insects when playing sports and running

Post by luigiman »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:33 am
Kim OHara wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:25 am
We have no choice about whether we kill animals in our daily life. Our only choice is whether or not we reduce unnecessary suffering as much as we reasonably can.
And that is a balancing act. Work it out as you go, but it's mixed kamma all the way.

:namaste:
Kim
:twothumbsup:

If the intention is pure, I don't think the kamma is mixed. If we are truly honest with ourselves and know there was no intention to kill, it's ok to relax in the knowing that your virtue on that front is intact. The benefit of sila is a blameless mind.
There is absolutely no intention to kill. But if I do this particular activity of playing sports then I would inevitably kill. Would you say that is more unnecessary or negligent compared to a monk walking outside or driving?
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