Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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confusedlayman
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by confusedlayman »

polaris wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:26 pm
sentinel wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:56 am
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:06 pm
In Thailand, the Dhammayut nikāya, and many Thai monks are particular about receiving offerings from women. They always use a receiving cloth. However, there is no need for that. One can simply touch the dish to accept it, and the gift is properly offered. Money is not allowed for monks, but the Dhammayut monks misinterpret this as money should not be touched. They accept money in an envelope. This is daft, and it defeats the entire purpose of the rule.
Bhante , there was a reason behind using the cloth . That supposed to draw a wider distance between monks and womens to prevent accidentally come into contact if they are too near .
The rule of money was said classed as minor rule and can be abolished .
And was said not practical in many countries where almsround are difficult to practice .
If you accidentally touch the hand or hands of a beautiful woman it could arouse your sexual desire in a blink of an eye so to speak.
I wonder how many monks had disrobed because of eye to eye contact that created the spark that lit the fire which went out of control. Just eye to eye contact is enough let alone touching the hand. I am sure some of you had read of a beautiful rich business woman (dealing in beauty products & Estethics) whom a famous senior monk fell in love with and he suddenly disrobed and very quickly married her.
You see monks holding a large fan in front of them when they are chanting in groups in public ceremony, those fans prevent them from accidentally looking at beautiful sexy women in front of them. Some women may be wearing low cut dress with cleavage showing. Those smooth lovely skin irresistible I must say. Can you really immediately meditate on the filth of the putrifying corpse? I think the hormone will work a lot faster than anything . The hormone will overwhelm your rationale thinking. Your hormone hi-jack your nervious system.
Very true. but is the fan holding for that in burma monks etc? I thought fan holding monk is abbot or senior monks and distinguish them from junior novice monks.
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polaris
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by polaris »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:38 pm
polaris wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:26 pm
sentinel wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:56 am

Bhante , there was a reason behind using the cloth . That supposed to draw a wider distance between monks and womens to prevent accidentally come into contact if they are too near .
The rule of money was said classed as minor rule and can be abolished .
And was said not practical in many countries where almsround are difficult to practice .
If you accidentally touch the hand or hands of a beautiful woman it could arouse your sexual desire in a blink of an eye so to speak.
I wonder how many monks had disrobed because of eye to eye contact that created the spark that lit the fire which went out of control. Just eye to eye contact is enough let alone touching the hand. I am sure some of you had read of a beautiful rich business woman (dealing in beauty products & Estethics) whom a famous senior monk fell in love with and he suddenly disrobed and very quickly married her.
You see monks holding a large fan in front of them when they are chanting in groups in public ceremony, those fans prevent them from accidentally looking at beautiful sexy women in front of them. Some women may be wearing low cut dress with cleavage showing. Those smooth lovely skin irresistible I must say. Can you really immediately meditate on the filth of the putrifying corpse? I think the hormone will work a lot faster than anything . The hormone will overwhelm your rationale thinking. Your hormone hi-jack your nervious system.
Very true. but is the fan holding for that in burma monks etc? I thought fan holding monk is abbot or senior monks and distinguish them from junior novice monks.
Yeah, I have never been to Burma, I often see pictures and videos of Burmese monks holding the big fans when doing some ceremonial chanting in front of a large group of people. Before I read about the reason for monks holding the big fans in front of them- I thought it was for ceremonial purposes. When I read the reason for holding the fan I immediately realized it's the right thing to do.
If a young monk has a penile erection it could become obvious if the monk is standing up straight. Some monks don't wear underpants. During Buddha's time monks didn't wear underpants or was prohibited then later Buddha allowed them to wear underpants because during Buddha's time some monks accidentally dropped their robes and had no underpants on. This is true story not made up story by me. You could find out about this but I cannot remember where I read this. There was a discussion on this issue of monks not wearing underpants on this forum sometime ago.
I imagine myself as a monk during the chanting ceremony accidentally looking at the armpits of ladies who were wearing bare shoulders attire. Being a lady armpits fetish that would make things very difficult for me. If I ever ordain as a monk I do need an extra big fan.

Any ladies out there now reading this should keep in mind when you visit the Buddhist temples please cover up your arms and tits, as well as your legs and thighs. Because the testosterone hormone doesn't respect anyone,ok?
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confusedlayman
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by confusedlayman »

polaris wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:42 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:38 pm
polaris wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:26 pm
If you accidentally touch the hand or hands of a beautiful woman it could arouse your sexual desire in a blink of an eye so to speak.
I wonder how many monks had disrobed because of eye to eye contact that created the spark that lit the fire which went out of control. Just eye to eye contact is enough let alone touching the hand. I am sure some of you had read of a beautiful rich business woman (dealing in beauty products & Estethics) whom a famous senior monk fell in love with and he suddenly disrobed and very quickly married her.
You see monks holding a large fan in front of them when they are chanting in groups in public ceremony, those fans prevent them from accidentally looking at beautiful sexy women in front of them. Some women may be wearing low cut dress with cleavage showing. Those smooth lovely skin irresistible I must say. Can you really immediately meditate on the filth of the putrifying corpse? I think the hormone will work a lot faster than anything . The hormone will overwhelm your rationale thinking. Your hormone hi-jack your nervious system.
Very true. but is the fan holding for that in burma monks etc? I thought fan holding monk is abbot or senior monks and distinguish them from junior novice monks.
Yeah, I have never been to Burma, I often see pictures and videos of Burmese monks holding the big fans when doing some ceremonial chanting in front of a large group of people. Before I read about the reason for monks holding the big fans in front of them- I thought it was for ceremonial purposes. When I read the reason for holding the fan I immediately realized it's the right thing to do.
If a young monk has a penile erection it could become obvious if the monk is standing up straight. Some monks don't wear underpants. During Buddha's time monks didn't wear underpants or was prohibited then later Buddha allowed them to wear underpants because during Buddha's time some monks accidentally dropped their robes and had no underpants on. This is true story not made up story by me. You could find out about this but I cannot remember where I read this. There was a discussion on this issue of monks not wearing underpants on this forum sometime ago.
I imagine myself as a monk during the chanting ceremony accidentally looking at the armpits of ladies who were wearing bare shoulders attire. Being a lady armpits fetish that would make things very difficult for me. If I ever ordain as a monk I do need an extra big fan.

Any ladies out there now reading this should keep in mind when you visit the Buddhist temples please cover up your arms and tits, as well as your legs and thighs. Because the testosterone hormone doesn't respect anyone,ok?
well explained, thanks
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

polaris wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:26 pmYou see monks holding a large fan in front of them when they are chanting in groups in public ceremony, those fans prevent them from accidentally looking at beautiful sexy women in front of them. Some women may be wearing low cut dress with cleavage showing. Those smooth lovely skin irresistible I must say. Can you really immediately meditate on the filth of the putrifying corpse? I think the hormone will work a lot faster than anything . The hormone will overwhelm your rationale thinking. Your hormone hi-jack your nervious system.
Spoken like a randy layman. While some monks might allow their eyes to wander to parts that others' eyes do not reach, I suspect that most monks find that they more often get distracted from their talk by someone being inattentive or fidgeting rather than by beautiful young women. Well-trained Burmese devotees gaze at the ground while listening to talks, they do not look at the eyes of the speaker. They are always dressed modestly when attending Dhamma talks or on meditation retreats.

Asubha meditation does not suit well when talking on Dhamma; one should practise metta, mindfulness of breathing, or recollection of the Buddha, depending on the subject of the talk.

Typically, Burmese monks do not cover their faces when chanting or teaching, though some may.

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krish5
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

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I am seeing a lot of mention about lust and sexual thoughts. I am wondering what a layperson is supposed to do regarding these thoughts? Are they considered bad, wrong, should they be controlled? I understand the rules are stricter for Monks, but i am specifically asking about a layperson. Biologically, as someone mentioned, if one sees a attractive woman, there will probably be a biological response. But the answer i dont feel is to cover up woman or not ever encounter a woman. So obviously, the answer has to be on our end, within ourselves. Is moderation the answer, not going to the extreme but a little sexual thought is okay? Is lust always wrong? Should lust and sexual thought, desire, be totally eliminated ?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

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krish5 wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:58 pm I am seeing a lot of mention about lust and sexual thoughts. I am wondering what a layperson is supposed to do regarding these thoughts? Are they considered bad, wrong, should they be controlled? I understand the rules are stricter for Monks, but i am specifically asking about a layperson. Biologically, as someone mentioned, if one sees a attractive woman, there will probably be a biological response. But the answer i dont feel is to cover up woman or not ever encounter a woman. So obviously, the answer has to be on our end, within ourselves. Is moderation the answer, not going to the extreme but a little sexual thought is okay? Is lust always wrong? Should lust and sexual thought, desire, be totally eliminated ?
Personally when I see an attractive man I try to see them as a bloated corpse or imagine the excrement that’s inside their bowls. For householders who are engaging with sex then they should stick to the 3rd precept out of the 5. It all depends on what the householder wants out of the Dhamma and what they are aiming for.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

krish5 wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:58 pm I am seeing a lot of mention about lust and sexual thoughts. I am wondering what a layperson is supposed to do regarding these thoughts? Are they considered bad, wrong, should they be controlled? I understand the rules are stricter for Monks, but i am specifically asking about a layperson. Biologically, as someone mentioned, if one sees a attractive woman, there will probably be a biological response. But the answer i dont feel is to cover up woman or not ever encounter a woman. So obviously, the answer has to be on our end, within ourselves. Is moderation the answer, not going to the extreme but a little sexual thought is okay? Is lust always wrong? Should lust and sexual thought, desire, be totally eliminated ?
"Whatever a monk keeps pursuing with his thinking & pondering, that becomes the inclination of his awareness. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with sensuality, abandoning thinking imbued with renunciation, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with sensuality. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with ill will, abandoning thinking imbued with non-ill will, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with ill will. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with harmfulness, abandoning thinking imbued with harmlessness, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with harmfulness.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

:)
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
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But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
krish5
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by krish5 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:24 pm
krish5 wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:58 pm I am seeing a lot of mention about lust and sexual thoughts. I am wondering what a layperson is supposed to do regarding these thoughts? Are they considered bad, wrong, should they be controlled? I understand the rules are stricter for Monks, but i am specifically asking about a layperson. Biologically, as someone mentioned, if one sees a attractive woman, there will probably be a biological response. But the answer i dont feel is to cover up woman or not ever encounter a woman. So obviously, the answer has to be on our end, within ourselves. Is moderation the answer, not going to the extreme but a little sexual thought is okay? Is lust always wrong? Should lust and sexual thought, desire, be totally eliminated ?
Personally when I see an attractive man I try to see them as a bloated corpse or imagine the excrement that’s inside their bowls. For householders who are engaging with sex then they should stick to the 3rd precept out of the 5. It all depends on what the householder wants out of the Dhamma and what they are aiming for.
Interesting how you see a attractive man. Does that work for you? Does that reduce your interest or attraction towards him? Are you able to see him as he really is?
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confusedlayman
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Re: Buddha surely used Higher knowledge in framing vinaya rules

Post by confusedlayman »

krish5 wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:43 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:24 pm
krish5 wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:58 pm I am seeing a lot of mention about lust and sexual thoughts. I am wondering what a layperson is supposed to do regarding these thoughts? Are they considered bad, wrong, should they be controlled? I understand the rules are stricter for Monks, but i am specifically asking about a layperson. Biologically, as someone mentioned, if one sees a attractive woman, there will probably be a biological response. But the answer i dont feel is to cover up woman or not ever encounter a woman. So obviously, the answer has to be on our end, within ourselves. Is moderation the answer, not going to the extreme but a little sexual thought is okay? Is lust always wrong? Should lust and sexual thought, desire, be totally eliminated ?
Personally when I see an attractive man I try to see them as a bloated corpse or imagine the excrement that’s inside their bowls. For householders who are engaging with sex then they should stick to the 3rd precept out of the 5. It all depends on what the householder wants out of the Dhamma and what they are aiming for.
Interesting how you see a attractive man. Does that work for you? Does that reduce your interest or attraction towards him? Are you able to see him as he really is?
since she/he is focusing on excrement and bloted corpse which are object of replusiveness, she will have repulsive or vomiting feeling when seeing attractive man.

But acc to buddha, once u become enlightened, wheather attractive man or bad looking man comes to ur contact of awarneess, u wont have arising of new feeling dependent on new contact.. if there is arising of new feeling, then one is still in illusion or ignorance. hence there is no change in feeling or mind state of arhant when he seeing many things because there is no latent tendency to it. but for practicing peiople like us, we should not focus on attractiveness etc...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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