Army Reserve Against the Precepts?

[Akashad]

Hi everyone,

I am studying nursing and biomedical science specialising in immunology and infectious diseases in the hopes of getting into medicine.I am at the end of my nursing degree but still have a few years to go for biomed and i'd like my application to stand out a bit for medicine as it's highly competitive and thought it would be a good idea to join the army reserve as an army nurse.
I believe the army can instill in me certain qualities they don't teach me at school such as leadership,team work,discipline,working under pressure, as well a good fitness habits.Its also challenging and if I can do this then I would have the confidence to pursue a career in medicine or just life in general.
The only problem is I dont want to kill anyone.
I've watched a few videos of what nursing or being a medic in the army entails and it's mostly helping other soldiers or civilians as well as humanitarian aid work.

It's just at basic training they drill on you mentally that you have to be prepared to pull the trigger to protect the soldier next to you.Like we are a team out there and cant let anyone be a sitting target.

As someone who contemplates kamma-vipaka on a daily basis I really dont want to engage in any kind of killing. I live in a peaceful country that is not at war with anyone and also as a reserve am given the option to deploy or not.

Do you think my decision to join the reserve breaks the precepts what if I decided to join the army full time as an army nurse or medic would that also be breaking the precept?

Are there any veterans here or anyone in the army, airforce or navy who are practicing Buddhists.

My main meditation is the Brahmaviharas too bruh ..

Metta

[Sam Vara]

Hi everyone,

I am studying nursing and biomedical science specialising in immunology and infectious diseases in the hopes of getting into medicine.I am at the end of my nursing degree but still have a few years to go for biomed and i'd like my application to stand out a bit for medicine as it's highly competitive and thought it would be a good idea to join the army reserve as an army nurse.
I believe the army can instill in me certain qualities they don't teach me at school such as leadership,team work,discipline,working under pressure, as well a good fitness habits.Its also challenging and if I can do this then I would have the confidence to pursue a career in medicine or just life in general.
The only problem is I dont want to kill anyone.
I've watched a few videos of what nursing or being a medic in the army entails and it's mostly helping other soldiers or civilians as well as humanitarian aid work.

It's just at basic training they drill on you mentally that you have to be prepared to pull the trigger to protect the soldier next to you.Like we are a team out there and cant let anyone be a sitting target.

As someone who contemplates kamma-vipaka on a daily basis I really dont want to engage in any kind of killing. I live in a peaceful country that is not at war with anyone and also as a reserve am given the option to deploy or not.

Do you think my decision to join the reserve breaks the precepts what if I decided to join the army full time as an army nurse or medic would that also be breaking the precept?

Are there any veterans here or anyone in the army, airforce or navy who are practicing Buddhists.

My main meditation is the Brahmaviharas too bruh ..

Metta

You are not actually breaking a precept until you break it. Putting yourself in a position where you might be called upon to break it is something else. Enrolling in the military only does that; there is no immediate requirement that you kill, or indeed break any of the other lay person's precepts, when you sign up. You might need to consider whether any declarations or oaths, etc. constitute Wrong Speech, which they might well do if they involve you saying you will obey orders that you have no intention of actually obeying.

Outside of the precepts, your decision might be considered as either wise or unwise. Only you can determine that. If, for example, you are joining with the intention to enhance your career prospects and to save lives and alleviate suffering, then that seems pretty wholesome to me. Conversely, you might feel unease at even putting yourself in a situation which makes it infinitesimally more likely that you kill, or that you disturb yourself by thinking about killing. It might also be the case that being in the military has a coarsening effect and makes unskillful behaviour more likely. That would be decided by local circumstances.

[BKh]

Lots of people join the military to learn discipline. Many are disappointed to find out that this is not what they end up learning.

There are probably an endless number of ways you can develop the qualities you are interested in other than the military.

Also, it should be remembered that when you join the military you loose personal autonomy. That in and of itself is neutral (kind of) except that you loose control over keeping the precepts.

But as others will also tell you, being in the military in and of itself is not breaking a precept. But the precepts are the beginning of the practice of good qualities, not the limit.

[DNS]

It depends on which field you do in the military. Not all fields involve combat and killing. My father was a career officer in the US Army and he always said that for every soldier with a gun, there are about 7 who never touch a gun, who do all kinds of duties behind the scenes not involving combat. He worked in purchasing and his biggest complaint about Vietnam was the headaches he'd get going from the super cold air conditioning in his office to the hot and humid outside air of Vietnam. That was the extent of his wartime stress, he said.

If you're doing nursing, you'd be saving lives, which is very good.

[simsapa]

instill in me certain qualities they don't teach me at school such as leadership,team work,discipline,working under pressure, as well a good fitness habits.

If you rely on someone else to form your character, what will you do when that person is gone? What will you do when you're in a different environment? Growth comes from within. You can train yourself anytime you want to.

leadership,team work

Actual leadership is really hard. It's an immense amount of pressure, responsibility, and complexity. You'll mess up a lot and get blamed constantly. And you can't learn leadership from a book. You have to actually do it. And a lot of it depends on knowing a team and an environment well: knowing the values of the place. Without that, just having a bunch of maxims memorized in your head is useless.

Team work... depends on the people in the team. There's no amount of memorization that will make dealing with incompetent people easy. A lot of the talk about team work assumes that people are doing their jobs. When they don't, and when people enable that, there's no amount of "learning" that will help. Having to do someone else's work (or do it over again when it sucks) will always suck. I'm speaking about teams and leaders in general, not about any particular one.

[dharmacorps]

You can be a Buddhist and work in the military. You aren't breaking precepts alone by being in the army. I worked in medicine for years and there are many many people who joined to serve the medical services who have nothing to do with killing or weapons, etc. It is a good place to get experience, learn discipline, and learn how to do your job in a system. I have found military doctors and nurses to be especially capable and efficient, and not easily flustered so your goals make a lot of sense and are realistic as long as you are willing to put forth the effort.

[santa100]

It's just at basic training they drill on you mentally that you have to be prepared to pull the trigger to protect the soldier next to you.Like we are a team out there and cant let anyone be a sitting target.

As someone who contemplates kamma-vipaka on a daily basis I really dont want to engage in any kind of killing. I live in a peaceful country that is not at war with anyone and also as a reserve am given the option to deploy or not.

Ever wonder why martial arts masters still carry out all the drills day in day out even long after they've mastered their art? They no longer do it to kill, but to save lives. If you've never practiced precision-striking, I'm willing to bet you'd have a much better chance of killing someone by unintentional and uncontrollable striking at their vital points. Those masters, thru their countless repetition of striking techniques, can execute a blow with the most precise, most controlled amount of force and distance so that it's strong enough to disable, but not kill the enemy. Same thing for shooting drill, the more you're able to hit the target with great precision and control, the less likely you'll kill someone due to your uncontrolled erratic shooting. So, be the best fighter and/or the best shooter, not just the best medic, for those would give you the best chance to save someone's life.

[Sam Vara]

It's just at basic training they drill on you mentally that you have to be prepared to pull the trigger to protect the soldier next to you.Like we are a team out there and cant let anyone be a sitting target.

As someone who contemplates kamma-vipaka on a daily basis I really dont want to engage in any kind of killing. I live in a peaceful country that is not at war with anyone and also as a reserve am given the option to deploy or not.

Ever wonder why martial arts masters still carry out all the drills day in day out even long after they've mastered their art? They no longer do it to kill, but to save lives. If you've never practiced precision-striking, I'm willing to bet you'd have a much better chance of killing someone by unintentional and uncontrollable striking at their vital points. Those masters, thru their countless repetition of striking techniques, can execute a blow with the most precise, most controlled amount of force and distance so that it's strong enough to disable, but not kill the enemy. Same thing for shooting drill, the more you're able to hit the target with great precision and control, the less likely you'll kill someone due to your uncontrolled erratic shooting. So, be the best fighter and/or the best shooter, not just the best medic, for those would give you the best chance to save someone's life.

In your country, are soldiers trained in how to shoot but not kill? The British Army (and almost certainly the police, too) are only trained to shoot at the main body mass (torso) or the head; it is accepted that with high-velocity weapons there is no "safe" place to hit, and that training soldiers otherwise would be a waste of time.

There are some munitions (such as high-velocity flechettes) which were originally designed to wound rather than kill. The logic was anything other than humanitarian. A wounded soldier needs food, and medical care, and therefore wastes the enemy's resources as a non-combatant consumer. And helping a wounded colleague off the battlefield is demoralising and time-wasting.

[DarrenM]

I served in the British Paras for 6 years. The truth is that in general the Forces is an unwholesome environment. I’m speaking from experience, I would struggle enormously to serve and practice if in that environment again.

Even ‘nice’ service personnel hold serious wrong views. I’m talking across the board, Army, Navy, RAF where I’ve been on service and met individuals. I’m sorry if that’s not what you wanted to hear, but it is my experience.

[SarathW]

The biggest problem of our lives is that we always have an enemy.
Now China is the enemy of America and vise versa.
This may change and we look for another enemy.
I am not sure whether an army nurse is allowed to treat an enemy soldier.
By the way, army service is not listed as the wrong livelihood.
So if you can avoid breaking five precepts as an army nurse, it is OK.
Is army training always promote hate?

[santa100]

In your country, are soldiers trained in how to shoot but not kill? The British Army (and almost certainly the police, too) are only trained to shoot at the main body mass (torso) or the head; it is accepted that with high-velocity weapons there is no "safe" place to hit, and that training soldiers otherwise would be a waste of time.

There are some munitions (such as high-velocity flechettes) which were originally designed to wound rather than kill. The logic was anything other than humanitarian. A wounded soldier needs food, and medical care, and therefore wastes the enemy's resources as a non-combatant consumer. And helping a wounded colleague off the battlefield is demoralising and time-wasting.

You're missing the point. Whether we're instructed to aim at the torso or the legs or the arms, the point of the drill remains the same: to sharpen one's shooting skill. And my point still hold: the better one's able to aim and shoot with accuracy, the better the chance s/he'll avoid killing the enemy due to his unintentional and uncontrolled action. I remember you mentioned you're trained in martial art? If you did, you should know that compared to an untrained person, your strikes are much more efficient, controlled, and accurate. That means in close-quarters combat, compared to the untrained, you either can kill an opponent much more efficiently, OR at the same time, if you want to spare his life, you can also do so much more easily. A blunt knife would mess up everything it touches, a sharp knife can take one's life easily OR make a wonderfully tasty dinner easily!

There are some munitions (such as high-velocity flechettes) which were originally designed to wound rather than kill. The logic was anything other than humanitarian.

Well, I'd say sometimes wholesome kamma results in a win-win. Even though it's not the intent, wounding the enemy instead of killing him actually results in a win-win. No life taken, and the attacking side's momentum and efficiency is significantly reduced!

[Akashad]

I served in the British Paras for 6 years. The truth is that in general the Forces is an unwholesome environment. I’m speaking from experience, I would struggle enormously to serve and practice if in that environment again.

Even ‘nice’ service personnel hold serious wrong views. I’m talking across the board, Army, Navy, RAF where I’ve been on service and met individuals. I’m sorry if that’s not what you wanted to hear, but it is my experience.

Thank you for that.I need to hear the truth.Appreciate it.

[Akashad]

I am not sure whether an army nurse is allowed to treat an enemy soldier.

I'm only aware of army nurses treating civilians.im not sure about enemy soldiers. ..

[Sam Vara]

You're missing the point. Whether we're instructed to aim at the torso or the legs or the arms, the point of the drill remains the same: to sharpen one's shooting skill. And my point still hold: the better one's able to aim and shoot with accuracy, the better the chance s/he'll avoid killing the enemy due to his unintentional and uncontrolled action.

I'm still missing the point, I'm afraid. The armed services train people to shoot so they can kill people. I would have thought that the better one's aim, the more likely one is to kill someone. If you can't shoot straight, you might accidentally kill your colleagues, but the intention will always be to kill the enemy. How would greater accuracy mean that killing is avoided?

[Sam Vara]

I am not sure whether an army nurse is allowed to treat an enemy soldier.

I'm only aware of army nurses treating civilians.im not sure about enemy soldiers. ..

I believe they are covered under the Geneva convention, if that still applies. Enemy wounded are given medical care and treatment.