Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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SDC
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

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confusedlayman wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:21 pm how can sotapanna kill or lie or steal? do u have sutta? or u lowering the sotapnna attainment? uninteltionally is ok but intentionally is not ok.
AN 1.268-277
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

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SDC wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:25 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:21 pm how can sotapanna kill or lie or steal? do u have sutta? or u lowering the sotapnna attainment? uninteltionally is ok but intentionally is not ok.
AN 1.268-277
what it says related to this post?

accomiplished in view refers to all 4 stagers

view means right view... sota has right view.. both mundane and supermundane
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

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confusedlayman wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:29 pm
SDC wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:25 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:21 pm how can sotapanna kill or lie or steal? do u have sutta? or u lowering the sotapnna attainment? uninteltionally is ok but intentionally is not ok.
AN 1.268-277
what it says related to this post?
You asked me to provide a sutta describing the things that a sotāpanna cannot do. I provided the sutta.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

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confusedlayman wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:29 pm accomiplished in view refers to all 4 stagers
No. It doesn't mean all four. While the arahant is accomplished in view, that is not how they are described in the suttas. They are one "with defilements ended" or "with taints destroyed" or liberated by such and such or "attained the goal". Do you want a sutta for this too?
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by confusedlayman »

SDC wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:44 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:29 pm accomiplished in view refers to all 4 stagers
No. It doesn't mean all four. While the arahant is accomplished in view, that is not how they are described in the suttas. They are one "with defilements ended" or "with taints destroyed" or liberated by such and such or "attained the goal". Do you want a sutta for this too?
accomplished in view is right view? i see no other view than this

im not talking about defilements or taints or attained goal ... im looking for 'accomplished
view"
word
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

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confusedlayman wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:14 pm
SDC wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:44 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:29 pm accomiplished in view refers to all 4 stagers
No. It doesn't mean all four. While the arahant is accomplished in view, that is not how they are described in the suttas. They are one "with defilements ended" or "with taints destroyed" or liberated by such and such or "attained the goal". Do you want a sutta for this too?
accomplished in view is right view? i see no other view than this
Here is the sotāpanna:
SN 56.50 wrote:So too, bhikkhus, for a noble disciple, a person accomplished in view who has made the breakthrough, the suffering that has been utterly destroyed and eliminated is more, while that which remains is trifling. Compared to the former mass of suffering that has been destroyed and eliminated, the latter is not calculable, does not bear comparison, does not amount even to a fraction, as there is a maximum of seven more lives.
And:
SN 12.33 wrote:When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple has purified and cleansed these two kinds of knowledge—knowledge of the principle and knowledge of entailment—he is then called a noble disciple who is accomplished in view, accomplished in vision, who has arrived at this true Dhamma, who sees this true Dhamma, who possesses a trainee’s knowledge, a trainee’s true knowledge, who has entered the stream of the Dhamma, a noble one with penetrative wisdom, one who stands squarely before the door to the Deathless.
Here is the arahant:
Iti 44 wrote:Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge.
So it is not "all four" like you said.

Now here is what the arahant cannot do:
AN 9.7 wrote:A mendicant who is perfected—with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and is rightly freed through enlightenment—can’t transgress in five respects. A mendicant with defilements ended can’t deliberately take the life of a living creature, take something with the intention to steal, have sex, tell a deliberate lie, or store up goods for their own enjoyment like they did as a lay person.
So AN 1.268-277 is about the sotāpanna, not the arahant.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by thepea »

binocular wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:45 am
thepea wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:24 amAs a sotapanna, I know what needs to be done.
Then you should have no problem with not being able to ordain, due to the pandemic or whatever other reason.
Why?
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

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thepea wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:16 pm I have sufferings that I react towards blindly, but didn’t one wise monk refer to sotapanna as “fish sauce”??
I mean fish sauce seems like the apprentice level, not the master level, am I mistaken?
All indications are that sotapanna is the beginning of the end. To use your words, it is entry to the master level. Sure, a sotapanna is referred to as one in training, but that seems to only be in a sense that they know for sure what that training is, and what they have to do. The original comment that had me compelled to enter this discussion was your phrasing of the suttas having the "potential" for mistakes, which is no doubt a potential for some, but not for one who understands the training:
SN 12.33 wrote:When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple has purified and cleansed these two kinds of knowledge—knowledge of the principle and knowledge of entailment—he is then called a noble disciple who is accomplished in view, accomplished in vision, who has arrived at this true Dhamma, who sees this true Dhamma, who possesses a trainee’s knowledge, a trainee’s true knowledge, who has entered the stream of the Dhamma, a noble one with penetrative wisdom, one who stands squarely before the door to the Deathless.
I would take the term "fish sauce" to be someone who has a strong grasp on "meaning and phrasing", but has yet to establish that view. Also good to keep in mind that one cannot know the extent of what remains and how long they will have to work to establish that view:
SN 22.101 wrote:When, bhikkhus, a carpenter or a carpenter’s apprentice looks at the handle of his adze, he sees the impressions of his fingers and his thumb, but he does not know: ‘So much of the adze handle has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier.’ But when it has worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that it has worn away.

“So too, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu dwells devoted to development, even though no such knowledge occurs to him: ‘So much of my taints has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier,’ yet when they are worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that they have been worn away.
Again, I hope the high standard I keep referring to is coming through in these suttas, as I think you would appreciate it.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

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SDC wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:02 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:16 pm I have sufferings that I react towards blindly, but didn’t one wise monk refer to sotapanna as “fish sauce”??
I mean fish sauce seems like the apprentice level, not the master level, am I mistaken?
All indications are that sotapanna is the beginning of the end. To use your words, it is entry to the master level. Sure, a sotapanna is referred to as one in training, but that seems to only be in a sense that they know for sure what that training is, and what they have to do. The original comment that had me compelled to enter this discussion was your phrasing of the suttas having the "potential" for mistakes, which is no doubt a potential for some, but not for one who understands the training:
SN 12.33 wrote:When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple has purified and cleansed these two kinds of knowledge—knowledge of the principle and knowledge of entailment—he is then called a noble disciple who is accomplished in view, accomplished in vision, who has arrived at this true Dhamma, who sees this true Dhamma, who possesses a trainee’s knowledge, a trainee’s true knowledge, who has entered the stream of the Dhamma, a noble one with penetrative wisdom, one who stands squarely before the door to the Deathless.
I would take the term "fish sauce" to be someone who has a strong grasp on "meaning and phrasing", but has yet to establish that view. Also good to keep in mind that one cannot know the extent of what remains and how long they will have to work to establish that view:
SN 22.101 wrote:When, bhikkhus, a carpenter or a carpenter’s apprentice looks at the handle of his adze, he sees the impressions of his fingers and his thumb, but he does not know: ‘So much of the adze handle has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier.’ But when it has worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that it has worn away.

“So too, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu dwells devoted to development, even though no such knowledge occurs to him: ‘So much of my taints has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier,’ yet when they are worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that they have been worn away.
Again, I hope the high standard I keep referring to is coming through in these suttas, as I think you would appreciate it.
Yes, I know the training. Yes, I know the path and the work to be done.
Yes, I understand aparent and ultimate view.
You seem to be pointing to this high level of standard, in a way that seems to suggest that I am not capable or worth of having practiced appropriately.

I’m in all complete honesty, openly letting you know that this is my reality. I have entered the stage of master apprentice. Cracked the dam, there is no power that can prevent this dam from breaking within 7 lifetimes according to suttas. I don’t give much importance to these things. This gift as explained offers me no doubt in the path, practice and what is required to do to finish the task.
But, what you seem to be failing to understand is parmis.
My parmis are not complete they are at a minimum of 25% in all categories and perhaps greater in some.
I may have to work, raise my children, battle the government against these horrific unwarranted Covid extremes, etc.... to build up in strong determination, compassion for others, or a variety of karmic reasons.

I am a very moral individual, strong willed, determined, a pain in the ass to some, but very moral. In no way a pushover but moral.

A saint in today’s times if you will, an angel. I will not rest in the face of tyranny against humanity. This doesn’t mean I will kill or physically hurt people, but I can crack the sheep with my cane in order to move them to safety or greener pastures. If you are a wooly creature and feel my cane you may be angered with me and think I am a horrible person. This is ok, I’ll bear this burden as I know the correct action required as I possess higher wisdom.

Regardless of what I do, this journey is ending.

There is an aspect of buddha in the teachings being overlooked or not given its proper importance. As a sotapanna, why wouldn’t I try to point this out in my own words and understandings. The real concern is why am I censored whenever I try to bring this to light?
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

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thepea wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:34 pm As a sotapanna,
A sotapanna has full conviction, confidence in the teachings. What were those posts in the topic about "Buddhism in your own 2 words"?

Was that just having some fun or poetry? For example,
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=579495#p579495

Reading some of your posts literally over there makes it look like you have some doubts, unless there is another explanation?
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:49 pm
thepea wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:34 pm As a sotapanna,
A sotapanna has full conviction, confidence in the teachings. What were those posts in the topic about "Buddhism in your own 2 words"?

Was that just having some fun or poetry? For example,
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=579495#p579495

Reading some of your posts literally over there makes it look like you have some doubts, unless there is another explanation?
I’m a dhammist, not a Buddhist.
Not even the slightest doubt in the dhamma.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

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thepea wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:59 pm
DNS wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:49 pm
thepea wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:34 pm As a sotapanna,
A sotapanna has full conviction, confidence in the teachings. What were those posts in the topic about "Buddhism in your own 2 words"?

Was that just having some fun or poetry? For example,
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=579495#p579495

Reading some of your posts literally over there makes it look like you have some doubts, unless there is another explanation?
I’m a dhammist, not a Buddhist.
Not even the slightest doubt in the dhamma.
What's the difference, in your opinion?

How does the Dhamma differ from Theravada?
Or how does the Dhamma differ from EBT?
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:19 am
thepea wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:59 pm
DNS wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:49 pm

A sotapanna has full conviction, confidence in the teachings. What were those posts in the topic about "Buddhism in your own 2 words"?

Was that just having some fun or poetry? For example,
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=579495#p579495

Reading some of your posts literally over there makes it look like you have some doubts, unless there is another explanation?
I’m a dhammist, not a Buddhist.
Not even the slightest doubt in the dhamma.
What's the difference, in your opinion?

How does the Dhamma differ from Theravada?
Or how does the Dhamma differ from EBT?
Dhamma is the pure teachings of buddha, Buddhism is a belief structure or religion.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

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thepea wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:41 am Dhamma is the pure teachings of buddha, Buddhism is a belief structure or religion.
Okay, but that still doesn't answer how they are different. Does Dhamma include monks, nuns? Does Dhamma include 4NT, 8FP?

How is the meditation practice different? What are the differences in doctrine? Does Dhamma include rebirth?
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by Ceisiwr »

thepea
Dhamma is the pure teachings of buddha, Buddhism is a belief structure or religion.
That is a little vague.
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood.”


Dhotakamāṇavapucchā
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