Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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confusedlayman
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by confusedlayman »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:16 am
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:00 am
even if choice is not there, there should be absention from wrong act
No. You cannot be held responsible for unintentional actions. If you have no choice in the matter (eg because it's an accident) this can even happen to an arahant and he would remain blameless.
Ok i understand. I was talking about different prespective. chuck it
dont think
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robertk
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by robertk »

thepea wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:25 pm
robertk wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:00 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:49 am

From where do you project this “absolute truth” of yours.
Is a sotapanna sentenced to spend the rest of his days sleeping in a bed with bedbugs?
Lice in hair?
A tapeworm?
You are 100% incorrect and your ignorance shines brightly in this matter.

THE ILLUSTRATOR OF ULTIMATE MEANING (PARAMATTHAJOTIKÄ) by Buddhaghosa Pali text society

, but one whose seeing is perfected (has excellence) is
unable to do them
.[/b] The incapability is mentioned here in order to
show that he does not do them even in the next existence; for in the
next existence, even if he does not know about his own noblediscipleship,
he does not, in virtue of the essential idea [of his
nature], do either these six or [190] [incur] the five risks (see A. iii,
204-6) beginning with normal killing of breathing thing


This Commentary by Buddhghosa, has been preserved and revered by millenia by the Theravada.
How could it be that a monk or nun or layman or woman who has eradicated wrongview would kill . They understand kamma, they understand the result of kamma.
Answer my questions?
I want you to explain this to me.
I don’t care about 1000 yr old potentially mistranslated scriptures.
The sotapanna is the one who has eradicated wrongview completely , forever.
They have developed wisdom to a high degree stage by stage thus they have insight into kamma and its result- killing an insect would be like hitting themselves in the head with a hammer.

One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry." Samyutta Nikaya 25.10
"Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream-enterer, . . . He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken." Samyutta Nikaya 55.2
"There are, O monks, these blessings in realizing the fruit of stream-entry: One is firm in the good Dhamma. One is unable to fall back." Anguttara Nikaya 6.97
"Consider the person who is accomplished in the precepts, and is moderately successful in concentration, moderately successful in wisdom – by destroying the three hindrances, he becomes one, who will be reborn seven times at most [stream entrant]" Anguttara Nikaya 9.12
"The stream winner, with virtues dear to noble ones endowed, which are unbroken and without a rent, untarnished and without a blemish, purifying, praised by the wise, uncontaminated and conducive to concentration." Anguttara Nikaya 9.27
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by confusedlayman »

robertk wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:23 am
thepea wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:25 pm
robertk wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:00 pm

THE ILLUSTRATOR OF ULTIMATE MEANING (PARAMATTHAJOTIKÄ) by Buddhaghosa Pali text society

, but one whose seeing is perfected (has excellence) is
unable to do them
.[/b] The incapability is mentioned here in order to
show that he does not do them even in the next existence; for in the
next existence, even if he does not know about his own noblediscipleship,
he does not, in virtue of the essential idea [of his
nature], do either these six or [190] [incur] the five risks (see A. iii,
204-6) beginning with normal killing of breathing thing


This Commentary by Buddhghosa, has been preserved and revered by millenia by the Theravada.
How could it be that a monk or nun or layman or woman who has eradicated wrongview would kill . They understand kamma, they understand the result of kamma.
Answer my questions?
I want you to explain this to me.
I don’t care about 1000 yr old potentially mistranslated scriptures.
The sotapanna is the one who has eradicated wrongview completely , forever.
They have developed wisdom to a high degree stage by stage thus they have insight into kamma and its result- killing an insect would be like hitting themselves in the head with a hammer.

One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry." Samyutta Nikaya 25.10
"Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream-enterer, . . . He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken." Samyutta Nikaya 55.2
"There are, O monks, these blessings in realizing the fruit of stream-entry: One is firm in the good Dhamma. One is unable to fall back." Anguttara Nikaya 6.97
"Consider the person who is accomplished in the precepts, and is moderately successful in concentration, moderately successful in wisdom – by destroying the three hindrances, he becomes one, who will be reborn seven times at most [stream entrant]" Anguttara Nikaya 9.12
"The stream winner, with virtues dear to noble ones endowed, which are unbroken and without a rent, untarnished and without a blemish, purifying, praised by the wise, uncontaminated and conducive to concentration." Anguttara Nikaya 9.27
this is what I also think. It is improper to critize sotapanna of deceiving, lie, stealing, killing or alcholol addict or having xx with others except wife...

There is no way sotapanna will do things that is critizied by wise. if u do certain things and imagine what buddha judgement will be, if its negative then he or she is not sotapanna with regard to 5 precepts break or 5 heniouscrime
dont think
lostitude
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by lostitude »

thepea wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:35 am
lostitude wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:52 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:42 am Lying can be done at times, say when refusal to wear a mask in public currently. I feel it important to stand against the demonic forces in power.
(...)
If this resonates with even 1% or less of population it does not make it ignorant or delusion. Majority can and often are manipulated, this is herd mentality.
(...)
With your logic there is no proof or way to prove your suttas are accurate. They may have been altered in a way to keep the masses practicing incorrectly and keep insight from arising.
(...)
These same scriptures that most likely have been translated inaccurately in order to suppress the essence of the truth.
I can see a pattern here.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 ... 1417718261
Don’t you dare accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist!!!
Back off!!
Calm down sotapanna, it’s not an accusation, but a simple observation. Being influenced by conspiracy theories is not a crime. But it can be a problem. Too bad for you that you don’t see it.
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

My advice: Don't tell your attainment and suspect if you're really x or y.
According to Majjhima Nikaya 5, if you have an attainment and recognize it as it is, this is higher than having an attainment and not discerning it.
MN 5 wrote:“Then again, the individual who, being unblemished, doesn’t discern as it has come to be that ‘I have no inner blemish’ is called the inferior man of the two individuals who are unblemished. The individual who, being unblemished, discerns as it has come to be that ‘I have no inner blemish’ is called the superior man of the two individuals who are unblemished.”
But how can you be really sure you have an attainment and you're not overestimating it?
Even monks of the time of the Buddha overestimated their attainments. Check MN 105:
MN 105 wrote:"Sunakkhatta, of the monks who have declared final gnosis in my presence... it is the case that some have rightly declared final gnosis, whereas others have declared final gnosis out of over-estimation. As for those who have rightly declared final gnosis, that is their truth. As for those who have declared final gnosis out of over-estimation, the thought occurs to the Tathagata, 'I will teach them the Dhamma.' Yet there are cases when the thought has occurred to the Tathagata, 'I will teach them the Dhamma,' but there are worthless men who come to him having formulated question after question, so that his thought, 'I will teach them the Dhamma,' changes into something else."
This sutta clearly shows that you can fool yourself thinking you're an arahant.

So, it's safer to just ignore all that thing about attainments. It's a great source of anxiety. If you suspect you have an attainment, ok, ignore it, there is work to be done. :thumbsup:
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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SDC
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by SDC »

thepea wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:33 am
SDC wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:50 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:25 pm I don’t care about 1000 yr old potentially mistranslated scriptures.
Potentially?

A sotāpanna would know whether or not the scriptures were wrongly translated. Or perhaps the sutta that says a sotāpanna is "in line with the Dhamma" was wrongly translated, and therefore a sotāpanna actually won't know whether or not the scriptures are in line with the Dhamma, so they wouldn't know whether or not they were wrongly translated, since he isn't sure because they were potentially translated wrongly. Sounds like this sort of sotāpatti is pretty agonizing.
What kind of riddle is this???
Don't act surprised, this is the conundrum of the sotāpatti you're describing.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by thepea »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:57 am
thepea wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:32 am Let’s say I was drinking a ginger ail and my friend was drinking a beer, and I accidentally grabbed his glass and had a sip I would be guilty of stealing and consuming alcohol. It would not be my volition but it could happen.
You apologize to your friend and get on with it.
You would not be guilty as you did not have the volitional intention to steal or consume alcohol, which is an essential ingredient. I don't remember them by heart but there are four or five requirements to be karmically responsible for an action. Including the intention, knowing it's wrong and having a choice in the matter.
So a sotapanna could drink alcohol.
This is my point. The universe will not implode.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by thepea »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:14 am
robertk wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:23 am
thepea wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:25 pm

Answer my questions?
I want you to explain this to me.
I don’t care about 1000 yr old potentially mistranslated scriptures.
The sotapanna is the one who has eradicated wrongview completely , forever.
They have developed wisdom to a high degree stage by stage thus they have insight into kamma and its result- killing an insect would be like hitting themselves in the head with a hammer.

One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry." Samyutta Nikaya 25.10
"Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream-enterer, . . . He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken." Samyutta Nikaya 55.2
"There are, O monks, these blessings in realizing the fruit of stream-entry: One is firm in the good Dhamma. One is unable to fall back." Anguttara Nikaya 6.97
"Consider the person who is accomplished in the precepts, and is moderately successful in concentration, moderately successful in wisdom – by destroying the three hindrances, he becomes one, who will be reborn seven times at most [stream entrant]" Anguttara Nikaya 9.12
"The stream winner, with virtues dear to noble ones endowed, which are unbroken and without a rent, untarnished and without a blemish, purifying, praised by the wise, uncontaminated and conducive to concentration." Anguttara Nikaya 9.27
this is what I also think. It is improper to critize sotapanna of deceiving, lie, stealing, killing or alcholol addict or having xx with others except wife...

There is no way sotapanna will do things that is critizied by wise. if u do certain things and imagine what buddha judgement will be, if its negative then he or she is not sotapanna with regard to 5 precepts break or 5 heniouscrime
You are speaking from experience?
Or are you just putting this “sotapanna” on a pedistall where it cannot be reached?
Also we are not talking about major offences here, as I mentioned we are discussing minor offences.
Rare occasions where lay responsibility challenges morality.

What you and Robertk seem to be saying is a Soto panna cannot be a construction worker. Just yesterday I was digging a pool house concrete pad and trench for gas line, pump lines etc.... I killed a few worms bugs etc..
We also had to remove trees from the spot to clear it.
Are you saying a sotapanna cannot do this type of work?
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by rightviewftw »

Note how nobody in this thread even mentioned the morality of a dhamma-follower and that of a faith-follower.

I guess it's too uncomfortable of a fact that those two are also classed as Ariya, let's analyze the morality of those shall we? Robertk, SDC, who wants to give it a shot?

You should break down that because when noble disciples are taken as 4 pairs these are also Sotapannas.

Let's start by asking whether Sarakaani was a faith or a dhamma-follower while alive, he was described as a good seed who lived & practiced in accord with the Dhamma, so what do we think was his designation at that time?
A teaching that’s well explained and well propounded, emancipating, leading to peace, proclaimed by someone who is a fully awakened Buddha. This is what I call a fertile field. A disciple remains in such a teaching, practicing in line with that teaching, practicing it properly, living in line with that teaching. This is what I call a good seed. Why can’t this apply to Sarakāni? SN55.25
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by confusedlayman »

thepea wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:39 am
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:14 am
robertk wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:23 am

The sotapanna is the one who has eradicated wrongview completely , forever.
They have developed wisdom to a high degree stage by stage thus they have insight into kamma and its result- killing an insect would be like hitting themselves in the head with a hammer.

One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry." Samyutta Nikaya 25.10
"Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream-enterer, . . . He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken." Samyutta Nikaya 55.2
"There are, O monks, these blessings in realizing the fruit of stream-entry: One is firm in the good Dhamma. One is unable to fall back." Anguttara Nikaya 6.97
"Consider the person who is accomplished in the precepts, and is moderately successful in concentration, moderately successful in wisdom – by destroying the three hindrances, he becomes one, who will be reborn seven times at most [stream entrant]" Anguttara Nikaya 9.12
"The stream winner, with virtues dear to noble ones endowed, which are unbroken and without a rent, untarnished and without a blemish, purifying, praised by the wise, uncontaminated and conducive to concentration." Anguttara Nikaya 9.27
this is what I also think. It is improper to critize sotapanna of deceiving, lie, stealing, killing or alcholol addict or having xx with others except wife...

There is no way sotapanna will do things that is critizied by wise. if u do certain things and imagine what buddha judgement will be, if its negative then he or she is not sotapanna with regard to 5 precepts break or 5 heniouscrime
You are speaking from experience?
Or are you just putting this “sotapanna” on a pedistall where it cannot be reached?
Also we are not talking about major offences here, as I mentioned we are discussing minor offences.
Rare occasions where lay responsibility challenges morality.

What you and Robertk seem to be saying is a Soto panna cannot be a construction worker. Just yesterday I was digging a pool house concrete pad and trench for gas line, pump lines etc.... I killed a few worms bugs etc..
We also had to remove trees from the spot to clear it.
Are you saying a sotapanna cannot do this type of work?
if someone kill bug and build house, then he is killing something for his own benefit.. so its bad karma..
dont think
thepea
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by thepea »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:16 pm
if someone kill bug and build house, then he is killing something for his own benefit.. so its bad karma..
So working to earn a living to support others is bad kamma?
The pool needs a house, people like pools. Are we to not build roads, build dhamma centres, etc...?
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by SDC »

rightviewftw wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:06 pm I guess it's too uncomfortable of a fact that those two are also classed as Ariya, let's analyze the morality of those shall we? Robertk, SDC, who wants to give it a shot?
I'd first rather get clarification from thepea before I assume he is referring to the possibility you're suggesting. What you're saying is far more clear and practical than what has been described so far in this thread.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by rightviewftw »

SDC wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:38 pm
rightviewftw wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:06 pm I guess it's too uncomfortable of a fact that those two are also classed as Ariya, let's analyze the morality of those shall we? Robertk, SDC, who wants to give it a shot?
I'd first rather get clarification from thepea before I assume he is referring to the possibility you're suggesting. What you're saying is far more clear and practical than what has been described so far in this thread.
Alright. Was just an invitation to analyze. Frankly i am getting extremely weary of these sotapanna's morality threads. It seems like many see themselves as a Sotapanna but are still killing whereas others likewise see themselves enlightened and are not killing but will they kill if their life here & now would depend on it, idk..

I think that the question 'what is the exact morality of a Sotapanna is and what they are capable of?' can not be answered beyond what the canonical texts say because one would need to analyze the behavior of all the Sotapannas that ever existed and more.

If i say that as i see it 'Sotapanna's morality is such and such, it really doesn't matter lest i can prove it with Sutta, so why bother..
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by confusedlayman »

thepea wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:30 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:16 pm
if someone kill bug and build house, then he is killing something for his own benefit.. so its bad karma..
So working to earn a living to support others is bad kamma?
The pool needs a house, people like pools. Are we to not build roads, build dhamma centres, etc...?
its better to live in middle of street and die in open than to build a small house at expense of killing bugs
dont think
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SDC
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by SDC »

rightviewftw wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:06 pm ...
It isn't so much the virtue that was called into question earlier in this thread (although that is the topic title). It is the suggestion that someone who has claimed sotāpatti would also express the potential of enduring doubt about the authenticity of the scriptures. Beyond the question of both saddhānusārī and dhammānusārī, someone who knows the extent of the fruition of sotāpanna to the degree that they can make the claim will, according to the suttas, know whether a suttaral description is aligned with that acquired Right View or not.
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