Under the table

[Digity]

What are your thoughts on paying people under the table for work? Typically when you do this the other person receiving the money is doing it to avoid claiming taxes and you usually get a discount on the work from paying straight cash. Just wondering if you think this break precepts in any way or should be avoided.

[dharmacorps]

"Under the table" infers that the transaction somehow skirts the law or is illegal (below minimum wage, etc). Simply paying someone for their labor (cash or otherwise) as a independent contractor is not illegal; but if done to intentionally avoid paying taxes or following laws, then it is possibly illegal. For example, if someone tells you "pay me this amount in this manner so I don't have to pay taxes", and you agree to it, you are doing something unethical. If you don't know their motivation but both are happy with the agreement I don't see the problem.

[DooDoot]

I generally avoid it. Its improper for the self-employed to avoid tax. I paid someone $85 cash last week for a small urgent job (cutting down a tree) because i had the cash in my wallet but I got two others doing larger jobs (carpenter doing a repair and plumber fixing burst water pipe) to send me an invoice. I generally tell them I prefer paying electronically.

[chownah]

Someone sells you a service or an item and you pay them for it. What is the problem?
chownah

[Dhamma Chameleon]

In situations like this you can apply the 'what if everyone did this' test. Would you want to live in a place where everyone did that? Then it's ok.

In this case, if everyone did this the country's tax revenue would drop and there would be less provision of public infrastructure, services etc. So I don't think it passes the test.

[Sam Vara]

Someone sells you a service or an item and you pay them for it. What is the problem?
chownah

If you pay them the agreed price, then for you there is no problem. You can even ask them for a receipt as proof of that, if you pay in cash. If they are paid in cash and don't record that on their tax return, the problem is theirs.

I can't remember the last time I paid in cash. Even homeless people selling newspapers from shop doorways have card machines now!

[Dhamma Chameleon]

Someone sells you a service or an item and you pay them for it. What is the problem?
chownah

If you pay them the agreed price, then for you there is no problem. You can even ask them for a receipt as proof of that, if you pay in cash. If they are paid in cash and don't record that on their tax return, the problem is theirs.

I guess, define 'problem'. Is it 'can I live with myself' or 'did I do the morally right thing'? Perhaps you are not responsible for the wrongdoing in the same way, but the OP's question seems to be about knowingly paying someone black. If everyone did it, the whole society would feel the negative effects of it. There are many countries with large grey economies where you can see what happens in this situation. Personally, I'd rather live somewhere else.

[48vows]

Just wondering if you think this break precepts in any way or should be avoided.

It's totally fine.

[Sam Vara]

Someone sells you a service or an item and you pay them for it. What is the problem?
chownah

If you pay them the agreed price, then for you there is no problem. You can even ask them for a receipt as proof of that, if you pay in cash. If they are paid in cash and don't record that on their tax return, the problem is theirs.

I guess, define 'problem'. Is it 'can I live with myself' or 'did I do the morally right thing'?

Both. If I pay for services or goods, I haven't broken the law, my kamma is good, and I can rest easy. What the new owner of that money does with it is their concern.

the OP's question seems to be about knowingly paying someone black

Nobody has ever said to me "Cash please, as I don't want to pay tax!" They would be foolish to do so.

There are many countries with large grey economies where you can see what happens in this situation. Personally, I'd rather live somewhere else.

In my country, paying for anything bigger than groceries or a haircut is impractical with cash. My contribution to a grey economy would be infinitessimally small, and still not my fault.

[Dhamma Chameleon]

Both. If I pay for services or goods, I haven't broken the law, my kamma is good, and I can rest easy. What the new owner of that money does with it is their concern.

the OP's question seems to be about knowingly paying someone black

Nobody has ever said to me "Cash please, as I don't want to pay tax!" They would be foolish to do so.

There are many countries with large grey economies where you can see what happens in this situation. Personally, I'd rather live somewhere else.

In my country, paying for anything bigger than groceries or a haircut is impractical with cash. My contribution to a grey economy would be infinitessimally small, and still not my fault.

Interesting discussion. The question is about knowingIy paying black. That is breaking the law, I think. I agree that the negative kamma is probably minimal. But for me the ethical question is definitely, do I want to contribute to this situation? I have paid for things black (knowingly and unknowingly) and spent quite some time in countries where there is little option to do otherwise. So it can be unavoidable, it can be relativised, but I still don't think it's morally flawless.

[chownah]

If everyone did it, the whole society would feel the negative effects of it.

This is a hypothetical....what you describe will never come about.....this is called conjecture....this is called a construal.

Also, if everyone did it then if one believes in democratic principles then it is OK to do it because not just a majority but EVERY ONE agrees to it.
chownah

[Dhamma Chameleon]

It's a hypthetical that helps me decide whether I consider my choices ethical or not, which is what I am sharing with you. It works for my peace of mind, YMMV.

[Sam Vara]

Interesting discussion. The question is about knowingIy paying black. That is breaking the law, I think.

Yes, I can envisage big financial deals where both parties agree to transfer money for goods or services, and actively intend to defraud the tax system. That's illegal and dark kamma. But on a day-to-day level for ordinary people like me, it doesn't happen. As I said above, I don't have the knowledge of what the recipient intends to do with his/her cash, and I certainly don't intend them to break the law.

But for me the ethical question is definitely, do I want to contribute to this situation? I have paid for things black (knowingly and unknowingly) and spent quite some time in countries where there is little option to do otherwise. So it can be unavoidable, it can be relativised, but I still don't think it's morally flawless.

The "morality" of the outcome is different from the kamma which is made by the individual here. If you resolutely refuse to pay for goods and services unless you know that the recipient of your money will definitely pay tax on the grounds that you are otherwise contributing towards theft, then you might also consider what the government will use the money for. Is it better that a peaceable trader keeps more of his hard-earned money, or that he gives it to a war-mongering or wasteful administration?

[Dhamma Chameleon]

If you resolutely refuse to pay for goods and services unless you know that the recipient of your money will definitely pay tax on the grounds that you are otherwise contributing towards theft, then you might also consider what the government will use the money for. Is it better that a peaceable trader keeps more of his hard-earned money, or that he gives it to a war-mongering or wasteful administration?

Fair enough, so you could decide that in fact you do not want to contribute to that situation. To be clear, I'm not advocating to always pay above the table. Sometimes an illegal action does more good, then I may choose to break the law. As we don't know the results considering them is not a guarantee either. But it really does help me decide whether I will do something 'shady' or not! And to be even more clear, this is because I hate following rules, not because I love them I need a pretty tight moral container.

[rhinoceroshorn]

I think this is a matter of social contract and if you believe it or recognize it.
I don't think there is any kammic effect, like piracy. It's not theft. It's a copy, literally.