Moral Dilemma

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Ceisiwr
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Moral Dilemma

Post by Ceisiwr »

I have recently started a new job that requires more travelling than my last one. As I currently do not drive and can't learn to drive whilst the lockdown is in place I have to rely on public transport for the time being. Naturally this is quite costly. To get home I have 2 train stops. This week I got on my train home and forgot I had not yet bought a ticket (I buy them via an app on the day, as it saves money). The app would only allow me to buy a ticket from my 2nd stop onwards to home as the train had already left the station, which I then bought (and so was cheaper). I then realised that due to COVID there hadn't been a conductor on the train each day and wouldn't be in the near future. Since there is no ticket barrier until I get to my city I could then travel each day home for half the price by paying for 1 stop instead of 2 (the stop where I get on is in a small village, so no ticket barriers). This would save me around £110 a month, which is quite a lot for me at the moment (I'm trying to save for driving lessons, a car and a house whilst paying off some uni debts). Needless to say I feel in a bit of dilemma with it. On the one hand I can still pay to travel home, but only pay for 1 stop instead of 2 thus saving me some much needed money. On the other hand I'm not sure if this violates the 2nd precept. I'm not actively taking any property, and I am paying something, but not for the full service.

Any advice would be appreciated.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SarathW
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by SarathW »

Yes, you break the second precepts by traveling without a valid ticket.
This is how hard it is for a layperson even to observe five precepts.
Your situation is no different than I have to kill few bees to chase them out of my house entrance hence breaking the first precept.

Tell your employer that you need more money to pay for your ticket or eat less.
Can you do busking?
Can you cut down some expenses such as buying a coffee?
Try to get a driving license ASAP.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Sam Vara
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Sam Vara »

Two questions that might help to settle it for you.

1) What would happen if a ticket inspector did get on the train and demand your ticket? I know there is Covid, etc., but what if they were currently asking for recently vaccinated inspectors to resume duties, or a random inspector on other duties just thought he'd like to have a look for old times' sake?

2) Would other aspects of your practice actually suffer if you did this - might it lead to a subtle level of unease? You normally seem very punctilious about precepts, so this point is about your psychology rather than the precepts...
chownah
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by chownah »

A ride is not freely given unless you pay the fare....if you don't pay the fare then it is not freely given.
chownah
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Deleted.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:01 pm Two questions that might help to settle it for you.

1) What would happen if a ticket inspector did get on the train and demand your ticket? I know there is Covid, etc., but what if they were currently asking for recently vaccinated inspectors to resume duties, or a random inspector on other duties just thought he'd like to have a look for old times' sake?
This is the thing I have thought about. I would either have to lie or tell the truth.

2) Would other aspects of your practice actually suffer if you did this - might it lead to a subtle level of unease? You normally seem very punctilious about precepts, so this point is about your psychology rather than the precepts...
Yes I have thought about this too. I haven't actually done it yet as I'm unsure if it is breaking the precept or not. At the moment I have continued to pay the full price. I wanted to do so until I get it clear in my head what the best course of action is.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
denise
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by denise »

oh....you know what you're doing....but nobody rides for free....just figure out how you might pay this back to someone or something that needs it.....you'll figure it out :thinking:
dharmacorps
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by dharmacorps »

I know on the bus in my area, they are waiving some "transfers" (rides between your destinations) due to covid, but it sounds like in your case you are sure that you do owe for every train you ride. That being said, it does seem clear those "free rides" are not freely given, so I think you are breaking the precept if you don't pay. I do agree that the fact nobody checks for your payment makes it odd, but this is likely just a product of covid. Best to rest your clearly good conscience and pay the fees regardless.
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mikenz66
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by mikenz66 »

I agree with most of the above. I would advise against deliberately avoiding payment, since that can be the start of developing an attitude of getting away with whatever you can.

On the other hand, I would not obsess about accidentally not paying or underpaying. I've sometimes been undercharged (e.g. at a restaurant), queried it, and been assured that it is correct, at which point I have given up, since it would have become troublesome for the staff to go back through the whole bill...

:heart:
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by JamesTheGiant »

To find whether not-paying is blameless: (You must change details to fit your situation.)
  • Imagine sitting there with the wrong ticket.
  • Imagine the conductor is checking tickets that day.
  • Imagine him getting closer and closer to your seat.
  • Imagine your rising apprehension, as you realize you will be publicly embarrassed in front of a carriage full of people who will look at you in scorn and judge you.
  • And now imagine you trying to explain, in front of all those people and the conductor, that what you did was blameless, and not stealing.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Ceisiwr »

I paid for the full ticket today.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Sam Vara
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:43 pm I paid for the full ticket today.
And my guess is that you have a mixture of feelings, but that the good ones predominate! :twothumbsup:
Spiny Norman
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:43 pm I paid for the full ticket today.
I've had some chats with the manager of my local train station over the last year - he's been bored due to Covid lock downs. He was saying a lot of rail passengers have been taking advantage of the Covid restrictions, particularly the absence of conductors on trains, and the reduced checking of tickets. They've been losing a lot of money. Fortunately the government have been funding the rail franchises, and covering all these losses.
I assume as a Tory you'd support that approach. 😆
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Sam Vara
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:43 pm I paid for the full ticket today.
I nearly forgot...Happy St. David's Day! :toast: :anjali:
asahi
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by asahi »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:03 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:43 pm I paid for the full ticket today.
I nearly forgot...Happy St. David's Day! :toast: :anjali:
Mind asking what is the meaning in celebrating st david day have to do with this paying ticket ?
No bashing No gossiping
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