sarcasm

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

sarcasm

Post by salayatananirodha »

is bad
I host a sutta discussion via Zoom Sundays at 11AM Chicago time — message me if you are interested
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: sarcasm

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

That's more a statement than a discussion topic.

What's the actual topic?

See: A Guide On How To Get The Most Out Of Your New Topics.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: sarcasm

Post by salayatananirodha »

i would have expected people who agree to say they agree and possibly go into detail and people who disagree to say so and say why and i and/or some of those other people would debate and discuss. is it the style of the post you object to?

i avoid sarcasm as much as i can, and i don't think it amounts to deliberate lying in many or most cases but its false speech. also i know i have been bewildered by some peoples' sarcasm or what i thought was sarcasm but couldn't tell. i think it breeds mistrust.
being someone who consistently speaks truth inspires confidence. you can be relied on only to say what is true
I host a sutta discussion via Zoom Sundays at 11AM Chicago time — message me if you are interested
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: sarcasm

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, putting context like that in your initial postings will be very helpful from now on.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: sarcasm

Post by salayatananirodha »

the style is important sometimes
we already generated discussion due to the style
I host a sutta discussion via Zoom Sundays at 11AM Chicago time — message me if you are interested
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: sarcasm

Post by chownah »

Maybe a video of a class in Sarcasm 101 will be helpful:

chownah
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: sarcasm

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Upon watching the first minute or so of the above video, it occurred to me that "sarcasm" (which I don't believe the Buddha did use), could be regarded as the "near enemy" of wit, irony, puns, and humour (which the Buddha did use).

As the saying goes, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Further, unlike wit, irony, puns and good humour, it appears difficult to reconcile sarcasm with Right Speech, since what is being said is an inversion of the truth.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
SteRo
Posts: 5950
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē

Re: sarcasm

Post by SteRo »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:47 am is bad
Sarcasm is the use of words usually used to either mock or annoy someone, or for humorous purposes.[1] Sarcasm may employ ambivalence,[2] although it is not necessarily ironic.[3] Most noticeable in spoken word, sarcasm is mainly distinguished by the inflection with which it is spoken[4] and is largely context-dependent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

I like sarcasm. :heart:
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: sarcasm

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:29 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:47 am is bad
Sarcasm is the use of words usually used to either mock or annoy someone, or for humorous purposes.[1] Sarcasm may employ ambivalence,[2] although it is not necessarily ironic.[3] Most noticeable in spoken word, sarcasm is mainly distinguished by the inflection with which it is spoken[4] and is largely context-dependent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

I like sarcasm. :heart:
what is that I that likes sarcasm?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: sarcasm

Post by confusedlayman »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:13 am Greetings,

Upon watching the first minute or so of the above video, it occurred to me that "sarcasm" (which I don't believe the Buddha did use), could be regarded as the "near enemy" of wit, irony, puns, and humour (which the Buddha did use).

As the saying goes, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Further, unlike wit, irony, puns and good humour, it appears difficult to reconcile sarcasm with Right Speech, since what is being said is an inversion of the truth.

Metta,
Paul. :)
sarcasm can lead to bad karma if other members get offended... I maybe wrong too
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: sarcasm

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings confused layman,
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:54 am sarcasm can lead to bad karma if other members get offended... I maybe wrong too
Indeed, you are wrong. The quality of action (kamma) is determined by the root (mula) intention (cetana) behind it. Whether people choose to take offense at something is both irrelevant to that relationship, and inconsequential as per the Lokavipatti Sutta, on The Failings of the World.

The sutta explains how the puthujjana revels in praise, but recoils from blame...
"He welcomes the arisen gain and rebels against the arisen loss. He welcomes the arisen status and rebels against the arisen disgrace. He welcomes the arisen praise and rebels against the arisen censure. He welcomes the arisen pleasure and rebels against the arisen pain. As he is thus engaged in welcoming & rebelling, he is not released from birth, aging, or death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, or despairs. He is not released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
Whereas the sekha and asekha view the matter in accordance with the Dhamma, rather than in accordance with the failings of the world...
"He does not welcome the arisen gain, or rebel against the arisen loss. He does not welcome the arisen status, or rebel against the arisen disgrace. He does not welcome the arisen praise, or rebel against the arisen censure. He does not welcome the arisen pleasure, or rebel against the arisen pain. As he thus abandons welcoming & rebelling, he is released from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: sarcasm

Post by confusedlayman »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:00 am Greetings confused layman,
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:54 am sarcasm can lead to bad karma if other members get offended... I maybe wrong too
Indeed, you are wrong. The quality of action (kamma) is determined by the root (mula) intention (cetana) behind it. Whether people choose to take offense at something is both irrelevant to that relationship, and inconsequential as per the Lokavipatti Sutta, on The Failings of the World.

The sutta explains how the puthujjana revels in praise, but recoils from blame...
"He welcomes the arisen gain and rebels against the arisen loss. He welcomes the arisen status and rebels against the arisen disgrace. He welcomes the arisen praise and rebels against the arisen censure. He welcomes the arisen pleasure and rebels against the arisen pain. As he is thus engaged in welcoming & rebelling, he is not released from birth, aging, or death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, or despairs. He is not released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
Whereas the sekha and asekha view the matter in accordance with the Dhamma, rather than in accordance with the failings of the world...
"He does not welcome the arisen gain, or rebel against the arisen loss. He does not welcome the arisen status, or rebel against the arisen disgrace. He does not welcome the arisen praise, or rebel against the arisen censure. He does not welcome the arisen pleasure, or rebel against the arisen pain. As he thus abandons welcoming & rebelling, he is released from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
Metta,
Paul. :)
thanks for clarifying... it may not be bad karma but it will be unskillful if others get offended by sarcasm and they might not talk with them again and prevent future useful conversation.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: sarcasm

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:02 am it may not be bad karma but it will be unskillful...
If by "unskillful", you're referring to that which is akusala, then there's no real difference between "bad kamma" and "unskillful", as each classification scheme shares the same roots (mula) of action.

It appears as if you're trying to wedge the failings of the world into the Dhamma. I would advise against that.
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:02 am if others get offended by sarcasm and they might not talk with them again and prevent future useful conversation.
Sure, but the Dhamma is about dukkha and its cessation. It is not an ancient treatise on how to win friends and influence people.

If you wish to find fault with sarcasm, you're much more likely to find grounds for objection by assessing it against the Buddha's discourses on Right Speech.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
SteRo
Posts: 5950
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē

Re: sarcasm

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:53 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:29 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:47 am is bad
Sarcasm is the use of words usually used to either mock or annoy someone, or for humorous purposes.[1] Sarcasm may employ ambivalence,[2] although it is not necessarily ironic.[3] Most noticeable in spoken word, sarcasm is mainly distinguished by the inflection with which it is spoken[4] and is largely context-dependent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

I like sarcasm. :heart:
what is that I that likes sarcasm?
What I are you referring to?

This one ?
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:54 am I maybe wrong too
:lol:
Last edited by SteRo on Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: sarcasm

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:37 am
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:53 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:29 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

I like sarcasm. :heart:
what is that I that likes sarcasm?
What I are you referring to?
that's what im asking.. what I u r referring to?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Post Reply