sarcasm

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
SteRo
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Re: sarcasm

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:38 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:37 am
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:53 am

what is that I that likes sarcasm?
What I are you referring to?
that's what im asking.. what I u r referring to?
That one that says
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:38 am that's what im asking
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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confusedlayman
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Re: sarcasm

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:40 am
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:38 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:37 am

What I are you referring to?
that's what im asking.. what I u r referring to?
That one that says
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:38 am that's what im asking
who says?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Dhammanando
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Re: sarcasm

Post by Dhammanando »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:29 am i avoid sarcasm as much as i can, and i don't think it amounts to deliberate lying in many or most cases but its false speech.
I don't think this is so, or at least not necessarily so, for saying the opposite of what one means is also a feature of irony, and irony is something the Buddha himself resorts to on occasion:
Now the venerable Sāriputta came to the place where the Exalted One was, and having saluted him, took his seat respectfully at his side and said: “Lord! such faith have I in the Exalted One, that methinks there never has been, nor will there be, nor is there now any other, whether recluse or Brahman, who is greater and wiser than the Exalted One, that is to say, as regards the higher wisdom.”

“Grand and bold are the words of thy mouth, Sāriputta! Thou hast roared a veritable lion’s roar in this that thou hast said. Of course then thou hast known all the Exalted Ones who in the long ages of the past have been Arahants, Awakened Ones, comprehending their minds with thy mind, and aware what was their conduct, what their doctrines, what their wisdom, what their mode of life, and the liberty to which they attained?”

“Not so, lord.”

“Of course then thou hast perceived all the Exalted Ones who in the long ages of the future will be Arahants, Awakened Ones, comprehending their minds with thy mind, and aware what will be their conduct, what their doctrines, what their wisdom, what their mode of life, and the liberty to which they attain?”

“Not so, lord.”

But at least then, Sāriputta, thou knowest that I now am Arahant, an Awakened One, comprehending my mind with thy mind, and aware that thus is the Exalted One’s conduct, such is his wisdom, such his doctrine, such his mode of life, and such the liberty to which he has attained?”

“Not so, lord.”

“Lo, here, Sāriputta, no knowledge hast thou concerning Arahants, Awakened Ones, past, future or present! Why then forsooth are thy words so grand and bold? Why hast thou roared this all-comprehensive lion’s roar?”
(DN 28)
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: sarcasm

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Lo, here, Sāriputta, no knowledge hast thou concerning Arahants, Awakened Ones, past, future or present! Why then forsooth are thy words so grand and bold? Why hast thou roared this all-comprehensive lion’s roar?
Could this advice be applied to many, many declarative opinions by plain folks, concerning what is for certain true and what is for certain not true? Methinks it doth apply.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: sarcasm

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Is the Buddha being sarcastic here?
Soṇa Suttaṃ wrote:“Monks, these five ancient Brahmin practices  are now practised by dogs, not by Brahmins. What five?

“Formerly, monks, Brahmins only coupled with Brahmin women, not with non-Brahmin women. Now, monks, Brahmins couple with Brahmin women and also with non-Brahmin women. Now, monks, dogs couple only with female dogs, not with other animals. This, monks is the first ancient practice of Brahmins that is now practised by dogs, not by Brahmins.

“Formerly, monks, Brahmins only coupled with Brahmin women when they were in season, not when they were not in season. Now, monks, Brahmins couple with Brahmin women when they are in season, and also when they are not in season. Now, monks, dogs only couple with female dogs when they are in season, not when they are not in season. This, monks, is the second ancient practice of Brahmins that is now practised by dogs, not by Brahmins.

“Formerly, monks, Brahmins neither bought nor sold Brahmin women, they lived together and bonded to continue the family line only through mutual affection. Now, monks, Brahmins also buy and sell Brahmin women, they do not live together and bond to continue the family line only through mutual affection. Now, monks, dogs neither buy nor sell female dogs, they live together and bond to continue the family line only through mutual affection. This, monks, is the third Brahmin practice that is now practised by dogs, not by Brahmins.

“Formerly, monks, Brahmins did not store up wealth, grain, silver, and gold. Now, monks, Brahmins store up wealth, grain, silver, and gold. Now, monks, dogs do not store up wealth, grain, silver, or gold. This, monks, is the fourth ancient practice of Brahmins that is now practised by dogs, not by Brahmins.

“Formerly, monks, Brahmins sought food for their morning meal in the morning and for their evening meal in the evening. Now, monks, Brahmins having eaten as much as their bellies will hold, leave taking away the left-overs. Now, monks, dogs seek food for their morning meal in the morning and for their evening meal in the evening. This, monks, is the fifth ancient practice of Brahmins that is now practised by dogs, not by Brahmins.
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Dhammanando
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Re: sarcasm

Post by Dhammanando »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:25 pm Could this advice be applied to many, many declarative opinions by plain folks, concerning what is for certain true and what is for certain not true? Methinks it doth apply.
Methinks likewise. For verily in the Canki Sutta doth the Tathāgata exhort that he who aspireth to be a "preserver of truth" ought to make known the basis whereupon he avereth something to be true.
The brahmins honour this not only out of faith, Master Gotama. They also honour it as oral tradition.”

“Bhāradvāja, first you took your stand on faith, now you speak of oral tradition. There are five things, Bhāradvāja, that may turn out in two different ways here and now. What five? Faith, approval, oral tradition, reasoned cogitation, and reflective acceptance of a view. These five things may turn out in two different ways here and now. Now something may be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. Again, something may be fully approved of…well transmitted…well cogitated…well reflected upon, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be well reflected upon, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. Under these conditions it is not proper for a wise man who preserves truth to come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’”

“But, Master Gotama, in what way is there the preservation of truth? How does one preserve truth? We ask Master Gotama about the preservation of truth.”

“If a person has faith, Bhāradvāja, he preserves truth when he says: ‘My faith is thus’; but he does not yet come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the preservation of truth; in this way he preserves truth; in this way we describe the preservation of truth. But as yet there is no discovery of truth.

“If a person approves of something…if he receives an oral tradition…if he reaches a conclusion based on reasoned cogitation…if he gains a reflective acceptance of a view, he preserves truth when he says: ‘My reflective acceptance of a view is thus’; but he does not yet come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ In this way too, Bhāradvāja, there is the preservation of truth; in this way he preserves truth; in this way we describe the preservation of truth. But as yet there is no discovery of truth.”

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/mn95
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sarcasm

Post by Ceisiwr »

I see no problem with sarcasm.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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retrofuturist
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Re: sarcasm

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:03 pm I see no problem with sarcasm.
I think it poses challenges online, because as per what SteRo quoted earlier, "Most noticeable in spoken word, sarcasm is mainly distinguished by the inflection with which it is spoken".

It's therefore all too easy for someone to think you're being direct and straight up, when you're actually being sarcastic... and regrettably, vice versa.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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DooDoot
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Re: sarcasm

Post by DooDoot »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:47 am is bad
For the purpose of Cultural Marxist virtue signaling & virtue shaming, i imagine sarcasm is a type of false speech. In fanatical crusades against the Satanism of sarcasm, it is probably best to quote MN 61:
"In the same way, Rahula, when anyone feels no shame in telling a deliberate lie, there is no evil, I tell you, he will not do. Thus, Rahula, you should train yourself, 'I will not tell a deliberate lie even in jest :shock: .''

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Also, care must be taken in handling the Snake:
The Simile of the Snake

Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma—discourses, stanzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories, marvels, and answers to questions—but having learned the Dhamma, they do not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom. Not examining the meaning of those teachings with wisdom, they do not gain a reflective acceptance of them. Instead they learn the Dhamma only for the sake of criticising others and for winning in debates, and they do not experience the good for the sake of which they learned the Dhamma. Those teachings, being wrongly grasped by them, conduce to their harm and suffering for a long time. Why is that? Because of the wrong grasp of those teachings.

https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/bodhi
Therefore, if we are playing with the Snake and want to accuse others of the evil sarcasm and make this evil more evil than the allegation of anti-Semiticism & LGBTQphobia, we can quote MN 61 at them to make ourselves feel morally righteous. This can also help us strengthen internal & external self-view and avoid having a few laughs at the expense of our lack of Dhamma learning. :spy: :twothumbsup:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:45 am, edited 7 times in total.
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mjaviem
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Re: sarcasm

Post by mjaviem »

I think irony goes without cruelty. I can't say the same about sarcasm. So I think sarcasm is unwholesome.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: sarcasm

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:05 pm Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:03 pm I see no problem with sarcasm.
I think it poses challenges online, because as per what SteRo quoted earlier, "Most noticeable in spoken word, sarcasm is mainly distinguished by the inflection with which it is spoken".

It's therefore all too easy for someone to think you're being direct and straight up, when you're actually being sarcastic... and regrettably, vice versa.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Rarely use Smilies, but surely there is or could be created, an Ironic or Sarcastic one?
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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retrofuturist
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Re: sarcasm

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Nicholas Weeks wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:52 am Rarely use Smilies, but surely there is or could be created, an Ironic or Sarcastic one?
If it were me, I'd use...

Ironic... 8-) or :ugeek:

Sarcastic... :roll:

Of course, those emojis don't always mean those things... but if I were wish to add a visual equivalent of an inflection, that's what I'd likely use.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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DooDoot
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Re: sarcasm

Post by DooDoot »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:29 am i avoid sarcasm as much as i can
I have avoided sexual activity for around 30 years but rarely virtue signal about it. Imagine if i condemned people for having sex & masturbating. I would be condemning people forever until totally exhausted from weariness.
salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:29 amand i don't think it amounts to deliberate lying in many or most cases but its false speech. also i know i have been bewildered by some peoples' sarcasm or what i thought was sarcasm but couldn't tell. i think it breeds mistrust.
You possibly should provide some examples because possibly people may be dropping hints rather than being malevolent. Keep in mind in Dhamma there is a place for pointing out faults for the intention/sake of improvement of behaviour.
salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:29 ambeing someone who consistently speaks truth inspires confidence. you can be relied on only to say what is true
I must emphatically disagree with the above. My experience of my speaking the truth often results in condemnation & attack against me. Today, we live in a Cultural Marxist world, where often sin is declared a virtue and virtue declared a sin. Therefore, often people resort to what may appear to be sarcasm for dropping 'hints', similar to how Jesus spoke in parables. In summary, it appears any individual promoting censorship of speech, doctrine & interpretation cannot know what is true because Truth does not abide is fear, censorship & defensiveness. Instead, real Truth fosters real fearlessness & unshakeable conviction. Thus, it is often those that quickly take offense to truth who often encourage others to engage in what appears to be 'sarcasm', such as in this video of sarcasm. :spy: :smile:

There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: sarcasm

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:29 ambeing someone who consistently speaks truth inspires confidence. you can be relied on only to say what is true
DooDoot wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:11 am I must emphatically disagree with the above. My experience of my speaking the truth often results in condemnation & attack against me. Today, we live in a Cultural Marxist world, where often sin is declared a virtue and virtue declared a sin. Therefore, often people resort to what may appear to be sarcasm for dropping 'hints', similar to how Jesus spoke in parables. In summary, it appears any individual promoting censorship of speech, doctrine & interpretation cannot know what is true because Truth does not abide is fear, censorship & defensiveness. Instead, real Truth fosters real fearlessness & unshakeable conviction.
You make a good point. This Dhamma goes "against the grain", and if people associate truth as going "with the(ir own) grain" and find confidence and comfort in that, then all they're doing is closing themselves off to the truth by affixing themselves to ditthi. The following sutta quote is one such example of the Buddha recognising this phenomenon in puthujjanas...
Snp 3.12 wrote:"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees."
For a puthujjana to dismiss aspects the Dhamma because they do not appear to correlate with one's own puthujjana world-view, seems to be the most common means by which otherwise sincere Buddhist practitioners dead-end their development.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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salayatananirodha
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Re: sarcasm

Post by salayatananirodha »

i dont have much time right now but i want to leave this here
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.058.than.html wrote:Now at that time a baby boy was lying face-up on the prince's lap. So the Blessed One said to the prince, "What do you think, prince: If this young boy, through your own negligence or that of the nurse, were to take a stick or a piece of gravel into its mouth, what would you do?"

"I would take it out, lord. If I couldn't get it out right away, then holding its head in my left hand and crooking a finger of my right, I would take it out, even if it meant drawing blood. Why is that? Because I have sympathy for the young boy."

"In the same way, prince:

[1] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."
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