giving beggars question

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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mikenz66
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Re: giving beggars question

Post by mikenz66 »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:56 pm
SarathW wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:41 am I was under the impression that monks are not allowed to share their alamfood with others or beggars.
There are certain items of sangha property that it's a Vinaya offence to give away, but almsfood isn't one of them.
That is good, since it's a common practice for lay people to bring food to monasteries, and for the monks to give what they don't eat back the lay people. It would be rather awkward and wasteful otherwise!

:heart:
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Re: giving beggars question

Post by SarathW »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:56 pm
SarathW wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:41 am I was under the impression that monks are not allowed to share their alamfood with others or beggars.
There are certain items of sangha property that it's a Vinaya offence to give away, but almsfood isn't one of them.
The Canon lists five classes of Community belongings that cannot be given out to any individual or divided up among the bhikkhus, even by a Community transaction or through the agency of a Community official. Any bhikkhu who does give out or divide up these belongings incurs a thullaccaya — and even then the belongings do not count as given out or divided up. They are still the property of the Community. The five classes are:

1) A monastery, the site of/for a monastery.
2) A dwelling, the site of/for of a dwelling.
3) A bed, bench, mattress, pillow.
4) A metal pot, a metal basin, a metal jar/bottle, a metal vessel/frying pan, a knife/machete, an axe, an adze, a hoe/spade (the Thai sometimes calls this a hoe, sometimes a spade), a drill/chisel.
5) Vines, bamboo, coarse grass, reeds, tina-grass, clay (all of these can be used as building materials), wooden goods, clay goods.

http://kusala.online-dhamma.net/%E6%96% ... /ch07.html
Bhante Pesala and Dhammanando.
Thank you.
A Sri Lankan monk said to me that the British rulers in Sri Lanka made a law that individual monks can have their own properties in their therenames. For some reason, it is difficult to change the law in Sri Lanka due to the protest from rich monks. (my thoughts) It appears.
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Re: giving beggars question

Post by SarathW »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:21 pm
Dhammanando wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:56 pm
SarathW wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:41 am I was under the impression that monks are not allowed to share their alamfood with others or beggars.
There are certain items of sangha property that it's a Vinaya offence to give away, but almsfood isn't one of them.
That is good, since it's a common practice for lay people to bring food to monasteries, and for the monks to give what they don't eat back the lay people. It would be rather awkward and wasteful otherwise!

:heart:
Mike
Agree.
I think I got this idea from reading a book about Ven. Ñāṇavīra Thera. (perhaps my memory is not reliable)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: giving beggars question

Post by mjaviem »

SarathW wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:31 pm ... (perhaps my memory is not reliable)
Not only that. Everything is not to trust. :P
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: giving beggars question

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

SarathW wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:27 pm A Sri Lankan monk said to me that the British rulers in Sri Lanka made a law that individual monks can have their own properties in their their names. For some reason, it is difficult to change the law in Sri Lanka due to the protest from rich monks. (my thoughts) It appears.
As far as I know, the Vinaya allows for a monk to own a dwelling place and the land that it sits on. Generally, monasteries are the property of the Saṅgha, but this creates problems in the UK where the Saṅgha has no standing as a legal entity. The property has to belong to an individual or to a body such as a registered charity or a company limited by guarantee (which I believe is the case for the EST monasteries).
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SarathW
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Re: giving beggars question

Post by SarathW »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:56 pm
SarathW wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:41 am I was under the impression that monks are not allowed to share their alamfood with others or beggars.
There are certain items of sangha property that it's a Vinaya offence to give away, but almsfood isn't one of them.
The Canon lists five classes of Community belongings that cannot be given out to any individual or divided up among the bhikkhus, even by a Community transaction or through the agency of a Community official. Any bhikkhu who does give out or divide up these belongings incurs a thullaccaya — and even then the belongings do not count as given out or divided up. They are still the property of the Community. The five classes are:

1) A monastery, the site of/for a monastery.
2) A dwelling, the site of/for of a dwelling.
3) A bed, bench, mattress, pillow.
4) A metal pot, a metal basin, a metal jar/bottle, a metal vessel/frying pan, a knife/machete, an axe, an adze, a hoe/spade (the Thai sometimes calls this a hoe, sometimes a spade), a drill/chisel.
5) Vines, bamboo, coarse grass, reeds, tina-grass, clay (all of these can be used as building materials), wooden goods, clay goods.

http://kusala.online-dhamma.net/%E6%96% ... /ch07.html
Venerable Pemasiri shares a story of he is giving food and lodging to a beggar.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: giving beggars question

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Leaving this here
Now, Ānanda, gifts to the following persons may be expected to yield the following returns. To an animal, a hundred times. To an unethical ordinary person, a thousand. To an ethical ordinary person, a hundred thousand. To an outsider free of sensual desire, 10,000,000,000.
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Re: giving beggars question

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SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:05 am Venerable Pemasiri shares a story of he is giving food and lodging to a beggar.
Do you know Bhikkhu is a beggar too? 😅 They have renounce the world. There is no more home, status, money, materials, family, etc.

How can a beggar store food and own a lodging?

The lodging is owned by the community monks, Sangha. Can't be own by an individual, i believe.
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Re: giving beggars question

Post by SarathW »

Joe.c wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 1:04 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:05 am Venerable Pemasiri shares a story of he is giving food and lodging to a beggar.
Do you know Bhikkhu is a beggar too? 😅 They have renounce the world. There is no more home, status, money, materials, family, etc.

How can a beggar store food and own a lodging?

The lodging is owned by the community monks, Sangha. Can't be own by an individual, i believe.
When the British took over Sri Lanka some 150 years back they introduce the ownership of temples by individual monks. This has created litigation raw among monks and lay people. However, in Western countries, the properties are owned by a society
(Dayaka)
In old days monks did not have a permanent abode they just wander from place to place and stayed in a nearby temple when getting dark. Nowadays you can't do it in Sri Lanka as you have to get prior permission similar to booking a hotel. It is sad that the old system collapsed. Now monks have identification cards too.
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Re: giving beggars question

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 1:27 am When the British took over Sri Lanka some 150 years back they introduce the ownership of temples by individual monks. This has created litigation raw among monks and lay people. However, in Western countries, the properties are owned by a society
(Dayaka)
In old days monks did not have a permanent abode they just wander from place to place and stayed in a nearby temple when getting dark. Nowadays you can't do it in Sri Lanka as you have to get prior permission similar to booking a hotel. It is sad that the old system collapsed. Now monks have identification cards too.
I think in many countries such as Singapore , Japan , Korea , Malaysia , Taiwan and Indonesia , some monks does owned the property in individual names . Unless , they willing to give up to transfer the ownership to an buddhist order or organisation . I thought every country in the world , each citizen has an ID card ! Including monks .
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Re: giving beggars question

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mario92 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:14 am Namaste i want to ask a question: here in my surroundings are a lot of beggars, i live in a suburb of houses, some of them steal from houses, others use drugs, others are just migrants, etc. You can not notice. Is it good to give to beggars in general even though is possible that i would be supporting bad behaviour? is it considered good to give even to those hungry beggars? thanks
There are five proper (for ones long term happiness, at least not against) occasion for giving, good householder: Kaladana Sutta: Seasonable Gifts. Giving (aside of duty in relation) outside this, even if relative, child... would just bring bonds and troubles, distress for oneself and others.
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Re: giving beggars question

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Dhammanando wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:56 pm
SarathW wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:41 am I was under the impression that monks are not allowed to share their alamfood with others or beggars.
There are certain items of sangha property that it's a Vinaya offence to give away, but almsfood isn't one of them.

Bhante,

thats not right at all. It's not for increasing faith, such statement aside of missinterpreting the Dhamma. It's common today that monks make gifts and alms a waste and forward it back to Samsara and pain for making favors, for their living and to get honored by those with wrong view.

Even "careless" forwarding toward Bhikkhunis was rightly blamed! Yet monks suggest foward alms to common folk, even animals, or what ever they think worthy of gift, get's an approve... nobody outside could even distinguish the rest proper, when on one side or both purifed given. That's why there are even roles for casting it away.

Western-modern-social-work-monastism ... when reading Vinaya with corrupt mind, like a lawyer seeks a work-around for going after desires, 1000 books of rules would not bring the Group-of-Sex monks into frame and on Noble ways.
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Re: giving beggars question

Post by mario92 »

SJohann wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:25 am
mario92 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:14 am Namaste i want to ask a question: here in my surroundings are a lot of beggars, i live in a suburb of houses, some of them steal from houses, others use drugs, others are just migrants, etc. You can not notice. Is it good to give to beggars in general even though is possible that i would be supporting bad behaviour? is it considered good to give even to those hungry beggars? thanks
There are five proper (for ones long term happiness, at least not against) occasion for giving, good householder: Kaladana Sutta: Seasonable Gifts. Giving (aside of duty in relation) outside this, even if relative, child... would just bring bonds and troubles, distress for oneself and others.
:namaste:
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Re: giving beggars question

Post by noumena »

SarathW wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:31 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:21 pm
Dhammanando wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:56 pm

There are certain items of sangha property that it's a Vinaya offence to give away, but almsfood isn't one of them.
That is good, since it's a common practice for lay people to bring food to monasteries, and for the monks to give what they don't eat back the lay people. It would be rather awkward and wasteful otherwise!

:heart:
Mike
Agree.
I think I got this idea from reading a book about Ven. Ñāṇavīra Thera. (perhaps my memory is not reliable)
A bit off-topic:

At my vihara in Indonesia, lay people bring plates of food to a communal kitchen. Food is divided into bite size pieces on plates or into bowls (for things like rice, porridges, soups) with spoons. Lay people present a dish to the bhikkhu(s) in another room, who takes a helping from the plate and then sets the rest of the dish aside. When the bhikkhu(s) have had their share of food, the rest of the plates are brought back to the kitchen, where laypeople enjoy a communal potluck together.

From my understanding of vinaya, this isn't exactly what's prescribed for the bhikkhus' almsrounds, but Indonesia is also not exactly friendly to the dhamma, at least where I live. For one thing, most laypeople don't have the time or means to feed the monastics daily (when they come to visit). This system works for seeing that the bhikkhus are fed, and it builds a lot of community among laypeople.
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Re: giving beggars question

Post by Madhyam »

I use to give one beggar money everytime, today I didn't because I once saw him smoking. So, just do what you feel comfortable.
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