'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 1132
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by salayatananirodha »

this translation of the fifth precept is wrong, i think, and i suspect that it causes a lot of harm.
the three terms surā, meraya and majja/pa pertain to alcohol, from what i've read.
i think it's possible that saints, at least stream-winners, may use drugs.
a lot of drugs in the world have medical indications, which are largely unknown in the modern, western world due to the war on drugs. even if a person is not prescribed such things they might use them in a 'self-medicating' way.
alcohol is one drug that is socially tolerated but has few if any legitimate medical uses.
you might say that intention matters, but its possible still to get drunk or tipsy even if you drink alcohol with the intention to use it as medicine. the development of that is blameworthy.
i dont know that the precept exclusively pertains to use of alcohol, but its quite a leap to include all drug use.
do you think there is more nuance to the fifth precept than contemporary translators reveal?

if it is that not all drug use falls under the fifth precept, then if a person might excessively blame himself or herself for using such drugs - or drugs in such a way - that fall outside of that
thereby mistaking less essential things for more essential things
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 1132
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by salayatananirodha »

i wish to enter this into evidence but without detracting from the original topic - this is not about what stream enterers are unlikely, but capable, of doing but what they might perhaps have a good chance of doing (even if it is blameworthy)
https://meditationexplorer.files.wordpr ... sion-2.pdf
Screen Shot 2021-04-11 at 2.24.10 PM.png
Screen Shot 2021-04-11 at 2.26.00 PM.png
Screen Shot 2021-04-11 at 2.26.00 PM.png (45.78 KiB) Viewed 590 times
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 1132
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by salayatananirodha »

it has to be a thing specific to this precept that is a basis of negligence, since there are other things that are bases of negligence that are covered under other rules and observances, such as watching movies, plays and sports, listening to music and playing games; see seventh precept
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 1132
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by salayatananirodha »

one thing comparable to this is how the river valley sangha includes environmentalism in their rendering of the first precept
perhaps an obvious overreach to us theravadins
i view this similarly but subtler
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 1132
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by salayatananirodha »

me, i like to drink energy drinks and other caffeinated beverages
there is a definite sensual effect that i am seeking
but is this a basis of negligence in accordance with the fifth precept?
i dont think it is

a lot of why people include 'all drugs' is due to the war on drugs*
dont-do-drugs-pack.jpg
c0f7c0d61907f118930218e8c92fec56.jpg
*a history of demonization of illicit substances by government and elite social classes
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 1132
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by salayatananirodha »

i would literally say its possible for a stream enterer to have a crystal meth or a heroin addiction
but #changemymind
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 11190
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by DooDoot »

salayatananirodha wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:29 pm i think it's possible that saints, at least stream-winners, may use drugs.
stream-winners cannot have 'downfall'

intoxicants lead to 'downfall'
To be a rake, a drunkard, a gambler, and to squander all one earns — this is a cause of one's downfall.

Not to be contented with one's own wife, and to be seen with harlots and the wives of others [or if gay, is similarly sexually promiscuous] — this is a cause of one's downfall.

Parabhava Sutta: Downfall
:|
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:14 pm i would literally say its possible for a stream enterer to have a crystal meth or a heroin addiction
:shock: :o :| :geek:
Now at that time a baby boy was lying face-up on the prince's lap. So the Blessed One said to the prince, "What do you think, prince: If this young boy, through your own negligence or that of the nurse, were to take a stick or a piece of gravel into its mouth, what would you do?"

"I would take it out, lord. If I couldn't get it out right away, then holding its head in my left hand and crooking a finger of my right, I would take it out, even if it meant drawing blood. Why is that? Because I have sympathy for the young boy."

MN 58
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
JamesTheGiant
Posts: 1459
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:41 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Yes it's a topic worth some personal reflection. Unfortunately it often causes argument in online discussions, as we will probably see soon.
Certainly at the time of the Buddha there were some drugs available in north India, including psiloycbin (soma?), cannabis, and opium. It's interesting he didn't mention them explicitly in any teachings.
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by pitithefool »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:28 pm stream-winners cannot have 'downfall'

intoxicants lead to 'downfall'
To be a rake, a drunkard, a gambler, and to squander all one earns — this is a cause of one's downfall.
Food for thought.

The canon defines the "intoxicant" rule as "fermented drinks which cause heedlessness".

Do fermented drinks always cause heedlessness?

If one takes a drink for the purpose of social interaction and it doesn't lead to harm, are they in decline?
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 1132
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by salayatananirodha »

pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:32 pm
DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:28 pm stream-winners cannot have 'downfall'

intoxicants lead to 'downfall'
To be a rake, a drunkard, a gambler, and to squander all one earns — this is a cause of one's downfall.
Food for thought.

The canon defines the "intoxicant" rule as "fermented drinks which cause heedlessness".

Do fermented drinks always cause heedlessness?

If one takes a drink for the purpose of social interaction and it doesn't lead to harm, are they in decline?
no, i dont think so, but it's a slippery slope. but no, i dont think if a person has one single drink appropriate to their body weight, not for the purpose of becoming intoxicated, and they dont become intoxicated, that they are violating the fifth precept in a meaningful way.
there was a forum member on here who i thought made a good argument: viewtopic.php?p=37437#p37437
in summary, it's the negligence from the intoxicants that is to be abstained from rather than the substances themselves.

i would like to revise one comment i made and say perhaps a stream enterer could or would not have an 'addiction' to crystal meth or heroin but they could perhaps have a habit of using those drugs. i currently dont see much reason to believe otherwise except that these substances are taboo. and there is a limit to the suffering they can experience. and it might not be a common thing at all.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by mjaviem »

salayatananirodha wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:56 pm no, i dont think so, but it's a slippery slope. but no, i dont think if a person has one single drink appropriate to their body weight, not for the purpose of becoming intoxicated, and they dont become intoxicated, that they are violating the fifth precept in a meaningful way.
...
The precept is don't drink. It isn't don't drink too much. A sip is a violation of the precept if made intentionally.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 11190
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by DooDoot »

pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:32 pm The canon defines the "intoxicant" rule as "fermented drinks which cause heedlessness".

Do fermented drinks always cause heedlessness?
Best to not encourage those who appear to claim they are a stream-enterer yet appear still doing drugs. This path is common to these types of chatsites; where addicts claim attainments arising from reading jargon in books. Try to have compassion &/or equanimity but don't feed addicts their follies. The Buddha said vice is a downfall; resulting in 'eons' in 'hell'. It is not easy to resurrect from the spiritual 'death' of vice. Addicts who get inspired by the dhamma but attain no fruit are a dime a dozen. They come & go, frequently. Buddhism is not Christianity. There is no magical salvation via faith in Buddhism.
I see my fall in your eyes,
The streams of the rain,
I see blue green butterflies
But I feel no pain,
I see the leaves of the life
Twirling in the wind
Again, and again.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 18564
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by mikenz66 »

salayatananirodha wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:56 pm no, i dont think so, but it's a slippery slope. but no, i dont think if a person has one single drink appropriate to their body weight, not for the purpose of becoming intoxicated, and they dont become intoxicated, that they are violating the fifth precept in a meaningful way.
...
Given they are something an individual takes on voluntarily, I see little point in arguing legalistically about the lay precepts. It's not as if you're going to be kicked out of Buddhism over your interpretation of the precepts.

Personally, I find almost any amount of alcohol affects the clarity of my mind and, frankly, makes me feel bad, so I try to avoid it. Occasionally, I choose to sip on a drink, or eat a dessert containing alcohol, out of politeness. These are the sort of personal choices one has to make...

:heart:
Mike
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 1132
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by salayatananirodha »

pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:32 pm The canon defines the "intoxicant" rule as "fermented drinks which cause heedlessness".

Do fermented drinks always cause heedlessness?
Best to not encourage those who appear to claim they are a stream-enterer yet appear still doing drugs. This path is common to these types of chatsites; where addicts claim attainments arising from reading jargon in books. Try to have compassion &/or equanimity but don't feed addicts their follies. The Buddha said vice is a downfall; resulting in 'eons' in 'hell'. It is not easy to resurrect from the spiritual 'death' of vice. Addicts who get inspired by the dhamma but attain no fruit are a dime a dozen. They come & go, frequently. Buddhism is not Christianity. There is no magical salvation via faith in Buddhism.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn55/sn55.024.wlsh.html wrote:"Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has merely faith, merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go to... states of woe.
and many similar declarations occur in suttas; for example https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

so you really dont have to be near-perfect to attain the fruit of stream winning. even 'addicts' can get a foot in the door.
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:56 pm no, i dont think so, but it's a slippery slope. but no, i dont think if a person has one single drink appropriate to their body weight, not for the purpose of becoming intoxicated, and they dont become intoxicated, that they are violating the fifth precept in a meaningful way.
...
Given they are something an individual takes on voluntarily, I see little point in arguing legalistically about the lay precepts. It's not as if you're going to be kicked out of Buddhism over your interpretation of the precepts.

Personally, I find almost any amount of alcohol affects the clarity of my mind and, frankly, makes me feel bad, so I try to avoid it. Occasionally, I choose to sip on a drink, or eat a dessert containing alcohol, out of politeness. These are the sort of personal choices one has to make...
i too completely abstain from alcohol but there could be some situation where perhaps i would not but would still not pursue intoxication. this topic is important for the delineation of things that are of great blame and things that are of little blame (be they blameable still). it's easy to blame ariyans for things by wrongly understanding the difference.
mjaviem wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:30 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:56 pm no, i dont think so, but it's a slippery slope. but no, i dont think if a person has one single drink appropriate to their body weight, not for the purpose of becoming intoxicated, and they dont become intoxicated, that they are violating the fifth precept in a meaningful way.
...
The precept is don't drink. It isn't don't drink too much. A sip is a violation of the precept if made intentionally.
that is one common interpretation, yes.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by pitithefool »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:50 am
Who is claiming stream entry here?

And yes, vice obviously leads to a bad destination.

Couple more questions: (I'm playing devil's advocate)

Are there any circumstances in which a person firmly established in sila ought to drink a fermented drink? I.e. a situation in which not doing so would lead to the harm of oneself and/or others?

What about the other precepts, too? DD, you've argued that it's OK to kill parasites. Would it be ok to drink if it would be considered more harmful not to?

And what about psychedelic drugs? Soma was probably a psychedelic drug, and I think it's safe to say that they can be used as a medicine to great effect.

What about Cannabis? No doubt that would have been used in the Buddha's time. Do we have any evidence that the Buddha knew about cannabis? If so, why was alcohol singled out?
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
Post Reply