8 precept and life span

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Dhammanando
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Re: 8 precept and life span

Post by Dhammanando »

asahi wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:48 am Is there any sutta reference saying full lifespan means 100 years ?
Yes, it's said that "a hundred years or a little over" is the maximum for our era. In other eras it can be much more or much less. I don't recall which sutta it is.
asahi wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:48 am I assume with iddhipādas He can achieve 120 / 150 or even 200 years of age ?
That would be a baseless assumption.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
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In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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asahi
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Re: 8 precept and life span

Post by asahi »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:48 am
Yes, it's said that "a hundred years or a little over" is the maximum for our era. In other eras it can be much more or much less. I don't recall which sutta it is.
asahi wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:48 am I assume with iddhipādas He can achieve 120 / 150 or even 200 years of age ?
That would be a baseless assumption.
So iyo that is not something possible , say for instant , even if i wanted to , myself or someone else striving to live to 125 years since maximum is 100(+5) ?


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confusedlayman
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Re: 8 precept and life span

Post by confusedlayman »

asahi wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:31 pm
Dhammanando wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:48 am
Yes, it's said that "a hundred years or a little over" is the maximum for our era. In other eras it can be much more or much less. I don't recall which sutta it is.
asahi wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:48 am I assume with iddhipādas He can achieve 120 / 150 or even 200 years of age ?
That would be a baseless assumption.
So iyo that is not something possible , say for instant , even if i wanted to , myself or someone else striving to live to 125 years since maximum is 100(+5) ?


Thks
It is said that arhants with jhanic based power can live even for aeon but that would be useless... i think as buddhist we should cut craving for this world as much as possible so possibility of livong above 100 yeara wont occur
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Dhammanando
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Re: 8 precept and life span

Post by Dhammanando »

asahi wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:31 pm So iyo that is not something possible , say for instant , even if i wanted to , myself or someone else striving to live to 125 years since maximum is 100(+5) ?
In the lifespan specification, "a hundred years or a little more", the phrase "a little more" (appaṃ vā bhiyyo) is rather vague. Obviously "a hundred years more" would be far too much, but "25 years more" might well fit within the range.

My main point, however, is that if you did live to be 125, it would not mean that you had been conceived with a lifespan of, say, 100, but had managed to extend it by 25 years. Rather it would mean either that you'd been conceived with a lifespan of 125 and had lived it in full and then passed away due to exhaustion of the āyusankhāras, or, you had been conceived with a lifespan of more than 125 years but had died an untimely death, e.g., because of killing living beings in the present life or because of unhealthy habits.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
asahi
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Re: 8 precept and life span

Post by asahi »

Dhammanando wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:40 am
asahi wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:31 pm So iyo that is not something possible , say for instant , even if i wanted to , myself or someone else striving to live to 125 years since maximum is 100(+5) ?
In the lifespan specification, "a hundred years or a little more", the phrase "a little more" (appaṃ vā bhiyyo) is rather vague. Obviously "a hundred years more" would be far too much, but "25 years more" might well fit within the range.

My main point, however, is that if you did live to be 125, it would not mean that you had been conceived with a lifespan of, say, 100, but had managed to extend it by 25 years. Rather it would mean either that you'd been conceived with a lifespan of 125 and had lived it in full and then passed away due to exhaustion of the āyusankhāras, or, you had been conceived with a lifespan of more than 125 years but had died an untimely death, e.g., because of killing living beings in the present life or because of unhealthy habits.
Bhante , according to what you have said the meaning of full lifespan is vague and uncertain . If according to suttas description of the full lifespan for that era (Buddha's time) should be of 100 years . Therefore , your presumption of 125 does not stands . Here is a case for your reference . Zaro Aga lifespan reached to 170 years claimed to be the longest living person known but according to the death certificate provided by Turkish doctor, Zaro Aga's age was 157. He was born on 1764 in Mutki, Bitlis Emirate, Ottoman Empire and
died in 1934 at Istanbul Province, Turkey .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaro_Aga

Furthermore , as confusedlayman said above , arahants with jhanic based power can live up to an aeon (a regular kappa of 16 million years) . I guess this can be ascertained from the suttas . One more thing is , Buddha passed away at 80 years old , given that He could live up to full lifespan where for Him to live for another 20 years does not make much diffferences . What's the point really .
If there is any kind of huge difference and great impact on human He could make would be if He could live for another thousand or few thousand years .

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Re: 8 precept and life span

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asahi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:23 am Bhante , according to what you have said the meaning of full lifespan is vague and uncertain.
It is "uncertain" in the sense that we don't know how long we shall live. It's "certain" in the sense that our maximum possible life-span according to Theravada doctrine was kammically determined at the moment of rebirth-linking.

It is "vague" only in the sense that most limiting adjectives and adverbs are somewhat inexact, but not in the sense that they are completely inexact. They will suffice for a ball park figure.

For example, if I tell you that there were several monks in the Uposatha hall, you won't know the exact number of monks, but it's a reasonable surmise that you could probably count them with the fingers on one or two hands. Certainly there won't be hundreds of them.
asahi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:23 amIf according to suttas description of the full lifespan for that era (Buddha's time) should be of 100 years . Therefore , your presumption of 125 does not stands.
The Araka Sutta gives the figure of "100 years or a little more" for the present era. It's you, not me, who brought up the possibility of living to 125 years. I don't myself believe that anyone in our age has lived that long, but if they did then my reply would be that 25 years more than a hundred might conceivably fall within the range of "a little more"
asahi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:23 amHere is a case for your reference . Zaro Aga lifespan reached to 170 years claimed to be the longest living person known
But it's not a proven claim. It's a contested one. If we confine ourselves to well-established claims...
Outside of mythology, the record for the maximum verified lifespan in the modern world is 122+1⁄2 years for women (Jeanne Calment) and 116 years for men (Jiroemon Kimura). Some scientists estimate that in case of the most ideal conditions people can live up to 127 years.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longevity_myths
asahi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:23 amFurthermore , as confusedlayman said above , arahants with jhanic based power can live up to an aeon (a regular kappa of 16 million years). I guess this can be ascertained from the suttas .
I have already covered this point. It isn't the jhānas but the iddhipādas whose mastery can lead to one living to the end of a kappa. But what does "kappa" mean here? Some Indian Buddhists thought that it meant that one might live to the end of an aeon, i.e., for millions of years. Others thought it meant that the iddhipādas have the power to overcome any obstructive kamma that might foreshorten your kammically determined maximum life-span. The latter view is the one upheld in the Theravada.

For details of the controversy, see P. S. Jaini's paper, Buddha's Prolongation of Life (Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, vol. 21, issue 3).
asahi wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:23 amIf there is any kind of huge difference and great impact on human He could make would be if He could live for another thousand or few thousand years .
But if you're going to side with the non-Theravadin understanding of "kappa" here, then it wouldn't be "another thousand or few thousand years." It would be millions of years.

:alien:
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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Dhammanando
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Re: 8 precept and life span

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Dhammanando wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:03 am For details of the controversy, see P. S. Jaini's paper, Buddha's Prolongation of Life (Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, vol. 21, issue 3).
See attached file.
jaini1958 (1).pdf
(475.72 KiB) Downloaded 65 times
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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robertk
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Re: 8 precept and life span

Post by robertk »

Thanks to ven Dhammanado for clarifying this. It comes up from time to time on the forum . e.g in 2009 :
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=691&p=8502&hilit=kappa#p8502
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Joshua
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Re: 8 precept and life span

Post by Joshua »

Dhammanando wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:08 pm
Joshua wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:16 pm Hi Venerable, can you share the source for this please?
The commentary to the Cūḷakammavibhaṅgasutta.
Thank you so much!
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