married but separated?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: married but separated?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:22 pm That sutta doesnt actually say prostitution is a wrong livelihood, it was inserted by the author. the sutta literally says "A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings (or living beings), business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.", but what constitutes business in human beings isnt explained. Im guessing Bhikkhu Bodhi just interpreted business in human beings as including both the slave and prostitute trades, or hes pulling from a different commentary than Ven Pandita who thinks business in humans doesnt count prostitution.
SarathW wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:18 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:13 am is it kāmesumicchācāra to go with someone who is legally married but is separated
The law of the land is not considered when you apply Buddhist teaching.
For instance, if you go to a prostitute it is not breaking the fifth precept if you are single.
However, you may be breaking the law of the land.
For instance, I think, that prostitution is illegal in the USA.
Buddha asked monks not to break the law of the land.
I'm not sure about that.
Prostitution which is paying for sex very likely comes under the violation of the 3rd precept.
It also often supports trafficking as many of them are coerced into such circumstances.
Certainly it's not becoming of someone on a higher or holy path.

Furthermore, a prostitute is committing grave negative kamma by enticing and making a living from arousing lust.
It leads to a lower birth.

So prostitution itelf is clearly wrong livelihood.

Bhante Moggallāna said, “This morning, friend, as I was coming down from the Gijjhakūṭa Mountain, I saw a skinless female ghost moving through the air. Vultures, crows, and hawks were chasing after her. They were stabbing her and tearing her apart. She was crying out in pain. I thought then, ‘It is unusual, indeed! It is amazing, indeed! That there exists such a being, that there exists such a non-human, that there exists such a life...”

"Monks, that non-human being was a prostitute in this same city of Rājagaha. As a result of that bad kamma, she was boiled in hell for many years, for many hundreds of years, for many thousands of years, for many hundreds of thousands of years. As a remaining result of that same kamma, she has been reborn as a ghost and is experiencing such terrible pain.”


https://suttafriends.org/sutta/sn19-13/

I can't imagine how the profession of prostitution could bring such negative results, yet the act of visiting them and participating in the profession would be free of any such negative kamma, much less be in line with the 3rd precept.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
SarathW
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Re: married but separated?

Post by SarathW »

So prostitution itelf is clearly wrong livelihood.

Bhante Moggallāna said, “This morning, friend, as I was coming down from the Gijjhakūṭa Mountain, I saw a skinless female ghost moving through the air. Vultures, crows, and hawks were chasing after her. They were stabbing her and tearing her apart. She was crying out in pain. I thought then, ‘It is unusual, indeed! It is amazing, indeed! That there exists such a being, that there exists such a non-human, that there exists such a life...”

"Monks, that non-human being was a prostitute in this same city of Rājagaha. As a result of that bad kamma, she was boiled in hell for many years, for many hundreds of years, for many thousands of years, for many hundreds of thousands of years. As a remaining result of that same kamma, she has been reborn as a ghost and is experiencing such terrible pain.”
:goodpost:

However prostitution is not listed as wrong livelihood.
It also has to separate the prostitute and the client.
According to Abhidhamma any sexual activity is unwholesome. (Akusala)
Then the Akusala action can be carried with attachment, aversion or ignorance.
It is not that clear cut.

:shrug:
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asahi
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Re: married but separated?

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:46 am However prostitution is not listed as wrong livelihood.
It also has to separate the prostitute and the client.
According to Abhidhamma any sexual activity is unwholesome. (Akusala)
Then the Akusala action can be carried with attachment, aversion or ignorance.
It is not that clear cut.

:shrug:
So if one got married and has the intention to produce an heir , the intention and action here are unwholesome ? :thinking:
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robertk
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Re: married but separated?

Post by robertk »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:46 am
So prostitution itelf is clearly wrong livelihood.

Bhante Moggallāna said, “This morning, friend, as I was coming down from the Gijjhakūṭa Mountain, I saw a skinless female ghost moving through the air. Vultures, crows, and hawks were chasing after her. They were stabbing her and tearing her apart. She was crying out in pain. I thought then, ‘It is unusual, indeed! It is amazing, indeed! That there exists such a being, that there exists such a non-human, that there exists such a life...”

"Monks, that non-human being was a prostitute in this same city of Rājagaha. As a result of that bad kamma, she was boiled in hell for many years, for many hundreds of years, for many thousands of years, for many hundreds of thousands of years. As a remaining result of that same kamma, she has been reborn as a ghost and is experiencing such terrible pain.”
:goodpost:

However prostitution is not listed as wrong livelihood.
It also has to separate the prostitute and the client.
According to Abhidhamma any sexual activity is unwholesome. (Akusala)
Then the Akusala action can be carried with attachment, aversion or ignorance.
It is not that clear cut.

:shrug:
The word in the sutta is aticārinī, unfaithful (adultress) not prostitute.
The Samantapasidika says (see note 355 of Bodhi Connected discourses) that she cheated on her husband and enjoyed contact with other men...as a counterpart of that kamma she was reborn as a flayed woman
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Re: married but separated?

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:08 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:46 am However prostitution is not listed as wrong livelihood.
It also has to separate the prostitute and the client.
According to Abhidhamma any sexual activity is unwholesome. (Akusala)
Then the Akusala action can be carried with attachment, aversion or ignorance.
It is not that clear cut.

:shrug:
So if one got married and has the intention to produce an heir , the intention and action here are unwholesome ? :thinking:
Yes. According to Abhidhamma.
It is based on attachment.
However, Buddha allowed lay people to get marry and have children even though it will lead to rebirth.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: married but separated?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

robertk wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:22 am The word in the sutta is aticārinī, unfaithful (adultress) not prostitute.
The Samantapasidika says (see note 355 of Bodhi Connected discourses) that she cheated on her husband and enjoyed contact with other men...as a counterpart of that kamma she was reborn as a flayed woman
Thanks for the clarification.
However I wonder if there is seen as being a great difference, or if prostitution would be seen as even worse not better than an adulteress or if the terms are used somewhat synonymously? Surely a prostitute would encounter many men who are married and thus be participating indirectly in adultery frequently.

It would seem that in the suttas any action or livelihood that involves generating or encouraging the increase of ones own and others defilements brings about much negative kamma and a negative rebirth.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
TRobinson465
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Re: married but separated?

Post by TRobinson465 »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:46 am
According to Abhidhamma any sexual activity is unwholesome. (Akusala)
Then the Akusala action can be carried with attachment, aversion or ignorance.
It is not that clear cut.

:shrug:
Is it really? Can you provide the passage for that? Id be interested in reading it. I actually thought non-adultery sexual activity was considered neither wholesome or unwholesome.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
SarathW
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Re: married but separated?

Post by SarathW »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:13 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:46 am
According to Abhidhamma any sexual activity is unwholesome. (Akusala)
Then the Akusala action can be carried with attachment, aversion or ignorance.
It is not that clear cut.

:shrug:
Is it really? Can you provide the passage for that? Id be interested in reading it. I actually thought non-adultery sexual activity was considered neither wholesome or unwholesome.
Please Google:
Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma).pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: married but separated?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:23 am
asahi wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:08 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:46 am However prostitution is not listed as wrong livelihood.
It also has to separate the prostitute and the client.
According to Abhidhamma any sexual activity is unwholesome. (Akusala)
Then the Akusala action can be carried with attachment, aversion or ignorance.
It is not that clear cut.

:shrug:
So if one got married and has the intention to produce an heir , the intention and action here are unwholesome ? :thinking:
Yes. According to Abhidhamma.
It is based on attachment.
However, Buddha allowed lay people to get marry and have children even though it will lead to rebirth.
The abhidhamma is not authoritative. If there are no references in the sutta's calling all sexual activity umwholesome then it is a later view that emerged not of the Buddha.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
SarathW
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Re: married but separated?

Post by SarathW »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:28 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:23 am
asahi wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:08 am

So if one got married and has the intention to produce an heir , the intention and action here are unwholesome ? :thinking:
Yes. According to Abhidhamma.
It is based on attachment.
However, Buddha allowed lay people to get marry and have children even though it will lead to rebirth.
The abhidhamma is not authoritative. If there are no references in the sutta's calling all sexual activity umwholesome then it is a later view that emerged not of the Buddha.
You are welcome to join the Abhidhamma opposition party.
:D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
TRobinson465
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Re: married but separated?

Post by TRobinson465 »

SarathW wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:22 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:13 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:46 am
According to Abhidhamma any sexual activity is unwholesome. (Akusala)
Then the Akusala action can be carried with attachment, aversion or ignorance.
It is not that clear cut.

:shrug:
Is it really? Can you provide the passage for that? Id be interested in reading it. I actually thought non-adultery sexual activity was considered neither wholesome or unwholesome.
Please Google:
Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma).pdf
Thanks, looks like a great read. :anjali:

Can you give me a hint/idea of where the passage saying any sexual activity is unwholesome is?

the closest thing i've been able to find is a phrase saying "the volition that drives the act of sexual transgression is always rooted in greed, i.e. desire to enjoy sexual pleasure with the illicit partner" on section 23, page 208 of the translation from Bhikkhu Bodhi.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
SarathW
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Re: married but separated?

Post by SarathW »

[the closest thing i've been able to find is a phrase saying "the volition that drives the act of sexual transgression is always rooted in greed, i.e. desire to enjoy sexual pleasure with the illicit partner" on section 23, page 208 of the translation from Bhikkhu Bodhi./quote]

Good point.
So I created a new post.
Perhaps Bhikkhu Bodhi got this wrong.
He is a Western monk. So he still got Western ideas!
:shrug:
Throughout the Sutta Pitaka the Buddha often compares sexual pleasure to arrows or darts. So in the Kama Sutta (4.1) from the Sutta Nipata the Buddha explains that craving sexual pleasure is a cause of suffering.

If one, longing for sensual pleasure, achieves it, yes, he's enraptured at heart. The mortal gets what he wants. But if for that person — longing, desiring — the pleasures diminish, he's shattered, as if shot with an arrow.[1]

The Buddha then goes on to say:

So one, always mindful, should avoid sensual desires. Letting them go, he will cross over the flood like one who, having bailed out the boat, has reached the far shore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_sexuality
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Gwi
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Re: married but separated?

Post by Gwi »

Kāmesumicchācārå = wrong conduct in sensual pleasures


concubinage (harlotry) = violate
Prostitutes (harlotry) = violate

Adultery = violate (big problem)
Rape (ravisment) = violate (big problem)

Concubinage n prostitutes = FORNICATION = VIOLATE
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"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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ddeck
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Re: married but separated?

Post by ddeck »

Another consideration is that one of the major considerations of the Buddha (especially visible in the patimokkha) was on preserving the Dhamma unstained for as long as possible. Many of the more contrived rules for monastics exist (though arguably primarily for mindfulness sake) largely for the sake of maintaining the image of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha.

So consider the worst case scenario here in which this creates legal issues or somewhat public drama. As unlikely as this may be, it could be fruitful to consider the repercussions of a Buddhist being involved in an extra-marital affair. Could this specific scenario cause others to view the religion in a negative light? Just food for thought.
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suriyopama
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Re: married but separated?

Post by suriyopama »

DooDoot wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:05 am Are you saying consorting with prostitutes does not lead to states of woe? :shrug:
I've found this study by Ven. Phramahā Yota Payutto where it says:

"A single man having sexual affairs with prostitutes does not violate the third precept because the third precept is meant to promote family integrity for married people"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have a question that goes beyond the "married but separated" case: this would be the case of a married couple, without children, where one of the partners is not interested at all in any kind of physical contact, not even hug or cuddle. The husband respects and understands her will and he is committed to stay together to support her while they live, but he cannot avoid having a transitory adventure with a non-married person.

At many countries, even for the Catholic Church, the failure to fulfill marital duties is a ground for legal separation. But they decide to keep living together as "brother and sister"

It is obvious that the adventure is unskillful for the development of the path, because it is feeding greed and lust. But would it also lead to an unfortunate rebirth, like the case of that skinless female ghost?
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