married but separated?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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salayatananirodha
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married but separated?

Post by salayatananirodha »

is it kāmesumicchācāra to go with someone who is legally married but is separated
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SarathW
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Re: married but separated?

Post by SarathW »

salayatananirodha wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:13 am is it kāmesumicchācāra to go with someone who is legally married but is separated
The law of the land is not considered when you apply Buddhist teaching.
For instance, if you go to a prostitute it is not breaking the fifth precept if you are single.
However, you may be breaking the law of the land.
For instance, I think, that prostitution is illegal in the USA.
Buddha asked monks not to break the law of the land.
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Re: married but separated?

Post by Ceisiwr »

SarathW wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:18 am For instance, I think, that prostitution is illegal in the USA.
As with a lot of things it depends which state you are in. It was legal when I was last in Las Vegas a few years ago. I think it still is.
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salayatananirodha
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Re: married but separated?

Post by salayatananirodha »

that really doesn't answer the question you guys
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/anguttara/10/an10-176.html wrote:One is kāmesumicchācārī, he is one who falls into such a conduct with a woman who is protected by her mother, protected by her father, protected by both her parents, protected by her brother, protected by her sister, protected by her relatives, protected by her clan, protected by the Dhamma, one who has a husband, who is liable to punishment, or even one on whom wreaths (of flowers) have been spread.{1}
i'm obviously concerned with the case of 'one who has a husband [or wife?]'
it is legal to have sex or sexual relations with someone who is married, at least in USA, so let's not stray from the topic at hand
Last edited by salayatananirodha on Sun May 30, 2021 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SarathW
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Re: married but separated?

Post by SarathW »

I would say it is ok to have a relationship with someone separated assuming both are single.
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salayatananirodha
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Re: married but separated?

Post by salayatananirodha »

sa-sāmikā, the site says, is 'with husband'
how can you be sure it is ok when this text seemingly states otherwise?
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DooDoot
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Re: married but separated?

Post by DooDoot »

salayatananirodha wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:13 am is it kāmesumicchācāra to go with someone who is legally married but is separated
Yes. Also, possibly there can be legal ramifications which may potentially legally harm that person therefore best to avoid.
SarathW wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:18 am For instance, if you go to a prostitute it is not breaking the fifth precept if you are single.
Are you saying consorting with prostitutes does not lead to states of woe? :shrug:
SarathW wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:04 am I would say it is ok to have a relationship with someone separated assuming both are single.
It appears the only dhammic relationship involving sex found in the suttas is marriage.
SarathW wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:18 amThe law [or convention] of the land is not considered when you apply Buddhist teaching.
It appears the only dhammic relationship involving sex found in the suttas is marriage.
corrupted too with prostitutes—
that’s the way to disaster’s woe.

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chownah
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Re: married but separated?

Post by chownah »

I heard a story about this but I can't vouch for its accuracy.

For some reason (I can't remember but maybe it was a suit for alienation of affection) where a man was in court being charged with having sex with a woman one day before her divorce became final....he told the judge that the sex occurred just one day before the divorce became final so he should not be found guilty.....the judge told him that "we have a legal term for a woman whose divorece will become final in one day.....we call her a married woman.....so I find you guilty...."
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Re: married but separated?

Post by Dhammanando »

salayatananirodha wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:13 am is it kāmesumicchācāra to go with someone who is legally married but is separated
It depends on how separated they are.

If they've become estranged (e.g., after a quarrel) and are now living apart, but haven't yet decided what to do, then they should be regarded as still a couple. Sex with either of them would break the third precept.

Likewise if they've separated and one wants a divorce but the other doesn't and still hopes to save the marriage.

But if they've separated, have both agreed to a divorce and are just waiting for this to be legally finalized, then they are no longer classed as a couple.
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SarathW
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Re: married but separated?

Post by SarathW »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:11 pm
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:13 am is it kāmesumicchācāra to go with someone who is legally married but is separated
It depends on how separated they are.

If they've become estranged (e.g., after a quarrel) and are now living apart, but haven't yet decided what to do, then they should be regarded as still a couple. Sex with either of them would break the third precept.

Likewise if they've separated and one wants a divorce but the other doesn't and still hopes to save the marriage.

But if they've separated, have both agreed to a divorce, and are just waiting for this to be legally finalized, then they are no longer classed as a couple.
But the highlighted is a dangerous proposal as it is not legal even though it may be ok according to Buddhist rules.
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Re: married but separated?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:51 am But the highlighted is a dangerous proposal as it is not legal even though it may be ok according to Buddhist rules.
Obviously the Venerable's answer accommodates the worldly legal position. Far less dangerous than consorting with prostitutes.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon May 31, 2021 2:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: married but separated?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:51 am But the highlighted is a dangerous proposal as it is not legal even though it may be ok according to Buddhist rules.
Whether it's legal or not will vary from country to country. But my answer wasn't concerned with what's permitted by law. It was based on Vinaya rulings about what counts as a couple - particularly in connection with the fifth sanghādisesa rule which prohibits bhikkhus acting as matchmakers. Under this rule a bhikkhu is permitted to mediate to help an estranged couple to reconcile, but only if they haven't yet divorced. Trying to get them to reconcile when they've already divorced would count as matchmaking.
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In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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SarathW
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Re: married but separated?

Post by SarathW »

Under this rule a bhikkhu is permitted to mediate to help an estranged couple to reconcile, but only if they haven't yet divorced. Trying to get them to reconcile when they've already divorced would count as matchmaking.
Interesting.
I did not know that Buddha allowed counseling for monks.
What about helping people who have problems with drugs etc.?
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Re: married but separated?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:41 am
Under this rule a bhikkhu is permitted to mediate to help an estranged couple to reconcile, but only if they haven't yet divorced. Trying to get them to reconcile when they've already divorced would count as matchmaking.
Interesting.
I did not know that Buddha allowed counseling for monks.
Though I used the word "permitted", this might be putting it a little too strongly. What he actually did was to declare it a non-offence when a certain bhikkhu did it:
At one time a woman quarreled with her husband and went to her mother’s house.
A monk who associated with that family reconciled them.
He became anxious [thinking he may have committed an offence and so approached the Buddha].
“Were they divorced, monk?”
“They weren’t divorced, Sir.”
“There’s no offense when they’re not divorced.”

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SarathW wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:41 am What about helping people who have problems with drugs etc.?
It's okay if it's Dhamma-based counsel, as opposed to, say, setting up shop as a psychotherapist. When I lived in Iceland about a third of the Icelanders who showed up on my doorstep were from Alcoholics Anonymous. They'd reached step #11 in the Twelve Step program, where one is encouraged to take up some practice of prayer or meditation, and were shopping around for advice on how to do so.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
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In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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SarathW
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Re: married but separated?

Post by SarathW »

12 steps program.

Admitting powerlessness over the addiction
Believing that a higher power (in whatever form) can help
Deciding to turn control over to the higher power
Taking a personal inventory
Admitting to the higher power, oneself, and another person the wrongs done
Being ready to have the higher power correct any shortcomings in one’s character
Asking the higher power to remove those shortcomings
Making a list of wrongs done to others and being willing to make amends for those wrongs
Contacting those who have been hurt, unless doing so would harm the person
Continuing to take personal inventory and admitting when one is wrong
Seeking enlightenment and connection with the higher power via prayer and meditation
Carrying the message of the 12 Steps to others in need

https://americanaddictioncenters.org/re ... de/12-step
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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