Fifth precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Spiny Norman
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by Spiny Norman »

thepea wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:34 pm Goenka Vipassana courses globally are requiring double vaccination to sit a course. Given that the word pharmaceutical literally means makers of poison and the fifth precept is to void intoxicants and poisons, how is this not a breach of fifth precept.

And for the record I consider all medicine as poison. For example a little can have a good effect but a lot can be deadly.
This sounds entirely reasonable, given that large retreats are potentially super spreader events.
Viruses and vaccines are not "poisons".
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cappuccino
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Re: Fifth precept

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Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:17 pm Viruses and vaccines are not "poisons".
this vaccine is dangerous


some people cannot hold this idea in their mind
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by cappuccino »

yes the virus is a danger as well
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:27 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:17 pm Viruses and vaccines are not "poisons".
this vaccine is dangerous


some people cannot hold this idea in their mind
98% of recent UK hospital covid deaths are unvaccinated patients.
Do the maths.
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cappuccino
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:39 pm Do the maths.
short term the vaccine is good


long term however I think not
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by cappuccino »

the problem is increased risk from the vaccine


since you will take it many times in the future
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by TRobinson465 »

U people do know that even if the vaccine was more dangerous than the virus. It still wouldn't constitute a breach of the 5th precept. Drinking poison and killing yourself is a breach of the first precept. Not the fifth.
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"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by cappuccino »

TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:56 pm killing yourself is a breach of the first precept.
not necessarily
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by TRobinson465 »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:58 pm
TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:56 pm killing yourself is a breach of the first precept.
not necessarily
Yes. Actually you are right. Someone who drinks alcohol and dies of alcohol poisoning would be breaking 5th not 1st. But ultimately it's a manner of intention. So as long as you r not taking the vaccine with the intention of causing heedlessness u r fine. This is probably why some sources say taking medicine that contains alcohol is not a breach of the 5th precept.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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seeker242
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by seeker242 »

thepea wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:17 pm
seeker242 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:23 pm It's not a breach of the precepts because it doesn't cause heedlessness. If it does not cause or contribute to heedlessness, then it doesn't matter what it is. The 5th precept is only about causing yourself heedlessness. Just because something might be harmful, does not make it against the precept.
Intoxicant includes anything we ingest, inhale or inject into our system that distorts consciousness, disrupts self-awareness, and that are detrimental to health,

This is what I’ve been taught and experienced to be the fifth precept.

Does this resonate with you?
No, because that's not what "intoxicant" means in the suttas. The suttas specifically say intoxicants that cause heedlessness, not just any intoxicant.
the question to ask is whether the substance will lead to loss of appamāda, meaning non-negligence, heedfulness, diligence. Appamāda consists in the arising of the mental factors of mindfulness (sati), clear comprehension (sampajañña), and wholesome energy (kusala viriya). viewtopic.php?p=377#p377
It is limited only to substances that "will lead to loss of appamāda", not just any intoxicant. Intoxicants, like coffee, are not included because they do not "lead to loss of appamāda". If someone is allergic to some substance, that would not change it's status either. Peanuts for example, for some people peanuts are pure poison. They would certainly die if they ate a handful. That does not mean everyone who eat peanuts is breaking the precepts. That does not make peanuts a precepts violation.

And no because then that would include eating McDonald's burgers, french fries and drinking Coca cola. Eating Mdconalds isn't against the 5th precept nor is coca cola. If it included everything that was detrimental to health, the list would be thousands of things long. The list is not that long.

I got 2 shots so far, there was no distortion of consciousness, no disruption of self-awareness, and no detriment to health. A couple beers on the other hand would easily have all of that.
Last edited by seeker242 on Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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cappuccino
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by cappuccino »

TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:55 pm But ultimately it's a manner of intention.
killing yourself could be to prevent unnecessary suffering


at least for the fully enlightened
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by bodom »

The topic is the fifth precept not the first precept and or suicide.

:focus:

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by Ontheway »

I have tasted alcohol or beer when I was about 12 ++ if not mistaken: Tiger, Heineken, Guinness Stout, some wine maybe (my parents allowed it, yes, it's weird). My family used to consuming alcohol beverages.

Then later my whole family taken up Theravada Buddhism and kept Five Precepts, we don't even consume a single drop of alcohol (not even in cooking) anymore ever since.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Re: Fifth precept

Post by thepea »

seeker242 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:00 pm
thepea wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:17 pm
seeker242 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:23 pm It's not a breach of the precepts because it doesn't cause heedlessness. If it does not cause or contribute to heedlessness, then it doesn't matter what it is. The 5th precept is only about causing yourself heedlessness. Just because something might be harmful, does not make it against the precept.
Intoxicant includes anything we ingest, inhale or inject into our system that distorts consciousness, disrupts self-awareness, and that are detrimental to health,

This is what I’ve been taught and experienced to be the fifth precept.

Does this resonate with you?
No, because that's not what "intoxicant" means in the suttas. The suttas specifically say intoxicants that cause heedlessness, not just any intoxicant.
the question to ask is whether the substance will lead to loss of appamāda, meaning non-negligence, heedfulness, diligence. Appamāda consists in the arising of the mental factors of mindfulness (sati), clear comprehension (sampajañña), and wholesome energy (kusala viriya). viewtopic.php?p=377#p377
It is limited only to substances that "will lead to loss of appamāda", not just any intoxicant. Intoxicants, like coffee, are not included because they do not "lead to loss of appamāda". If someone is allergic to some substance, that would not change it's status either. Peanuts for example, for some people peanuts are pure poison. They would certainly die if they ate a handful. That does not mean everyone who eat peanuts is breaking the precepts. That does not make peanuts a precepts violation.

And no because then that would include eating McDonald's burgers, french fries and drinking Coca cola. Eating Mdconalds isn't against the 5th precept nor is coca cola. If it included everything that was detrimental to health, the list would be thousands of things long. The list is not that long.

I got 2 shots so far, there was no distortion of consciousness, no disruption of self-awareness, and no detriment to health. A couple beers on the other hand would easily have all of that.
The precepts are not a word for word one case fits all type of practice. As you progress and connect at deeper levels of mind/body you might see that sugar or coffee effect you in ways and you choose not to ingest these. Sort of like thinking of killing is not a breach of first precept but these thoughts do not give rise to suitable concentration and limit progress on the path at higher levels.
The fundamental choice to put this or that into ones own body is critical in the buddhas teachings.
Buddha is instructing to be sovereign not obedient slaves.
He’s teaching to break free from slavery.
My cousin took her second shot and died shortly after, will she receive a human birth? All I know is her opportunity to end suffering in that life was exterminated prematurely as 42 is not very old.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Moderators have already pointed out the parameters by which this somewhat convoluted topic has been allowed, but it has since become untenable and disconnected from the Fifth Precept, so it shall be closed.

If there's further discussion to be had, please create a new topic - well worded, and clearly in line with the parameters of the Dhamma Wheel forum and its sub-forums.

:thanks:

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Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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