Fifth precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
thepea
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Fifth precept

Post by thepea »

Goenka Vipassana courses globally are requiring double vaccination to sit a course. Given that the word pharmaceutical literally means makers of poison and the fifth precept is to void intoxicants and poisons, how is this not a breach of fifth precept.

And for the record I consider all medicine as poison. For example a little can have a good effect but a lot can be deadly.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:34 pm Goenka Vipassana courses globally are requiring double vaccination to sit a course. Given that the word pharmaceutical literally means makers of poison and the fifth precept is to void intoxicants and poisons, how is this not a breach of fifth precept.

And for the record I consider all medicine as poison. For example a little can have a good effect but a lot can be deadly.
The word "pharmaceutical" doesn't mean that at all. That's the origin of the word, not the current meaning. A bit like how the English word "nice" no longer means "ignorant", because it has changed its meaning.

The fifth precept is not to avoid intoxicants and poisons. Just the intoxicants. Fermented wine, spirits, and liquor that lead to heedlessness. The word for poison or venom is visa, and it doesn't appear in the Pali formulation of the precept. Had the intention of the precept been to proscribe all "toxins", (i.e. things which poison in all ways other than producing "intoxication") then it wouldn't have been restricted to those things which merely cause heedlessness.

You are of course welcome to consider all medicines as poison, but it would be more convincing if you had a better reason than a lot proving deadly. The same applies to water and all foodstuffs. Are they all poisons?
Nobodyisspecial
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by Nobodyisspecial »

Look my friends.
The four requisites of a monk are food and water, clothing, housing and medicine. A monk has the right to these material needs. With these things approved by the vinaya one can keep enough health to get enlightened, without them one suffers poor health or dies from excessive mortification. The vaccine is mostly good medicine for all and if you don't want a flu shot maybe the flu is not so bad. But the corona virus is more deadly than the vaccine and we are pretty much guaranteed to get the corona virus. How is your math?
TRobinson465
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by TRobinson465 »

5th precept is taking substances that cause heedlessness. Medicine does not count and it is even considered one of the four requisites for monks, since we are of nature to sicken. Even taking alcohol, if taken in medicine that simply contains it, is not considered a breach of the precept from what i have heard.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
thepea
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:43 pm
The word "pharmaceutical" doesn't mean that at all. That's the origin of the word, not the current meaning. A bit like how the English word "nice" no longer means "ignorant", because it has changed its meaning.

The fifth precept is not to avoid intoxicants and poisons. Just the intoxicants. Fermented wine, spirits, and liquor that lead to heedlessness. The word for poison or venom is visa, and it doesn't appear in the Pali formulation of the precept. Had the intention of the precept been to proscribe all "toxins", (i.e. things which poison in all ways other than producing "intoxication") then it wouldn't have been restricted to those things which merely cause heedlessness.

You are of course welcome to consider all medicines as poison, but it would be more convincing if you had a better reason than a lot proving deadly. The same applies to water and all foodstuffs. Are they all poisons?
Intoxicant includes anything we ingest, inhale or inject into our system that distorts consciousness, disrupts self-awareness, and that are detrimental to health.

Pharmaceutical is makers of poisons, and this is fitting in my claim but poison can be medicinal too. Many medicines prescribed by Drs are deadly if taken out of recommended dosage. I’m not claiming that these are bad or good but merely seeing things as they are.

Now to address your definition of the fifth precept as simply to prevent heedlessness I offer the for mentioned that was taught and experienced by myself. Buddha certainly didn’t want us to ingest anything that causes the body or mind harm.

I know six people in the community where I reside that have exemptions for a variety of reasons to this vaccine.
Some are from previous vaccine injury and others for psychological reasons. To inject into these people woul cause great harm.
I only know buddha to ever be inclusive with his dhamma teachings, even dangerous mass murderers were welcome to come and receive dhamma. I never heard of a sutta where buddha rejected teaching to someone, especially for someone refusing to take something detrimental to their well being. Even goenka gave the story of the mother preparing food for her child, “I offer you this delicious plate of food all ingredients are so delicious” but the boy refuses because of the black stones. “This is Cardamom not black stones, try it!!” In the end the message is to take off the plate anything you dislike and eat what you like.

I’m simply stunned and feeling that this is a complete breach of the fifth precept to force or exclude anyone for forced vaccinations.
thepea
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by thepea »

Nobodyisspecial wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:09 am Look my friends.
The four requisites of a monk are food and water, clothing, housing and medicine. A monk has the right to these material needs. With these things approved by the vinaya one can keep enough health to get enlightened, without them one suffers poor health or dies from excessive mortification. The vaccine is mostly good medicine for all and if you don't want a flu shot maybe the flu is not so bad. But the corona virus is more deadly than the vaccine and we are pretty much guaranteed to get the corona virus. How is your math?
Just how you said “mostly good for all” but for a small percentage it is not good and can be harmful. I just don’t see buddha restricting those rare individuals from his teachings.
thepea
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by thepea »

TRobinson465 wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:07 am 5th precept is taking substances that cause heedlessness. Medicine does not count and it is even considered one of the four requisites for monks, since we are of nature to sicken. Even taking alcohol, if taken in medicine that simply contains it, is not considered a breach of the precept from what i have heard.
Intoxicant includes anything we ingest, inhale or inject into our system that distorts consciousness, disrupts self-awareness, and that are detrimental to health,
What about those exempted from this vaccine due to potential harm?
Can they not practice or learn dhamma?
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

thepea wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:41 pm

I know six people in the community where I reside that have exemptions for a variety of reasons to this vaccine.
Some are from previous vaccine injury and others for psychological reasons. To inject into these people woul cause great harm.
I only know buddha to ever be inclusive with his dhamma teachings, even dangerous mass murderers were welcome to come and receive dhamma. I never heard of a sutta where buddha rejected teaching to someone, especially for someone refusing to take something detrimental to their well being. Even goenka gave the story of the mother preparing food for her child, “I offer you this delicious plate of food all ingredients are so delicious” but the boy refuses because of the black stones. “This is Cardamom not black stones, try it!!” In the end the message is to take off the plate anything you dislike and eat what you like.

I’m simply stunned and feeling that this is a complete breach of the fifth precept to force or exclude anyone for forced vaccinations.
I think the issue is not so much of discrimination based on vaccine. It's perhaps more of protection. Protecting the people who are unvaccinated. Say, if the retreat has one vaccinated person who unknowingly is a carrier of Covid, then half of the participants are unvaccinated, many because they had been influenced by anti-vax brainwash instead of legit medical reasons. Then as the disease spread within the retreat for 10 days, there could be news of a new cluster from their retreat centre.

Then what happens next? Close down the centre, people can't benefit from meditation retreat. The other centres has to implement the rule: no unvaccinated people allowed to avoid such cases to happen again.

Thus, it's more of unvaccinated people who could otherwise go vaccinate themselves are being selfish, putting others at risk, not thinking about the bigger picture and crying for fair treatment, but actually it's more of a practical, necessary move for retreats centres to have that policy.
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by thepea »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:04 am I think the issue is not so much of discrimination based on vaccine. It's perhaps more of protection. Protecting the people who are unvaccinated. Say, if the retreat has one vaccinated person who unknowingly is a carrier of Covid, then half of the participants are unvaccinated, many because they had been influenced by anti-vax brainwash instead of legit medical reasons. Then as the disease spread within the retreat for 10 days, there could be news of a new cluster from their retreat centre.

Then what happens next? Close down the centre, people can't benefit from meditation retreat. The other centres has to implement the rule: no unvaccinated people allowed to avoid such cases to happen again.

Thus, it's more of unvaccinated people who could otherwise go vaccinate themselves are being selfish, putting others at risk, not thinking about the bigger picture and crying for fair treatment, but actually it's more of a practical, necessary move for retreats centres to have that policy.
What does discrimination mean?
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

If I am able I have ability not dis-ability. Dis is a negation or no. So discrimination is no-criminaltion or no charge of a crime. It’s a poison word inserted into our language used for hypnosis.

If I’m correctly comprehending you, you are using fear of an imaginary future event to persecute individuals exercising differing choices to the majority.
We always have a majority and a minority view on any subject, we don’t burn the minority at the stake or punish them and restrict their participation in society.
I have never seen a sutta where buddha suggests this type of paranoid over reactivity. I have only heard the buddha suggest quiet observation with calm and balance.
To make decisions based on wisdom of experience and not multiply misery through imagination.
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

thepea wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:25 am
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:04 am I think the issue is not so much of discrimination based on vaccine. It's perhaps more of protection. Protecting the people who are unvaccinated. Say, if the retreat has one vaccinated person who unknowingly is a carrier of Covid, then half of the participants are unvaccinated, many because they had been influenced by anti-vax brainwash instead of legit medical reasons. Then as the disease spread within the retreat for 10 days, there could be news of a new cluster from their retreat centre.

Then what happens next? Close down the centre, people can't benefit from meditation retreat. The other centres has to implement the rule: no unvaccinated people allowed to avoid such cases to happen again.

Thus, it's more of unvaccinated people who could otherwise go vaccinate themselves are being selfish, putting others at risk, not thinking about the bigger picture and crying for fair treatment, but actually it's more of a practical, necessary move for retreats centres to have that policy.
What does discrimination mean?
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

If I am able I have ability not dis-ability. Dis is a negation or no. So discrimination is no-criminaltion or no charge of a crime. It’s a poison word inserted into our language used for hypnosis.

If I’m correctly comprehending you, you are using fear of an imaginary future event to persecute individuals exercising differing choices to the majority.
We always have a majority and a minority view on any subject, we don’t burn the minority at the stake or punish them and restrict their participation in society.
I have never seen a sutta where buddha suggests this type of paranoid over reactivity. I have only heard the buddha suggest quiet observation with calm and balance.
To make decisions based on wisdom of experience and not multiply misery through imagination.
It's just common sense, unfortunately, the anti vax messages you expose yourself to might have twisted your common sense to disregard other's safety.

If this issue is about seat belts, it's quite acceptable for people that the police can fine people not wearing their seat belts. Vaccine is even more dangerous, by not vaccinating, one doesn't only not protect oneself, one exposes the society at large with the danger of the disease. It's already quite a generous move for society to not make vaccination compulsory or fine people who don't vaccinate. It's a prudent choice for others to take actions to protect others who has chosen to do the wise thing.

Just as many places have their right to place a no smoking sign in their buildings, so too, it's justified to exclude people who might be harmed or harming others by not vaccinating.

Just as the airplanes have the right to tell people to turn off their mobile phones when taking off and landing to avoid even the smallest chance of plane crashing, so too, retreat centres have the right to tell people who are not vaccinated to not come so as to protect their ongoing operation and benefit the masses, especially given that the chances of outbreak happening is much higher.

It's not so much fear, but compassion. It's being uncompassionate to not vaccinate. It's compassionate to help protect those who do from those who are more irresponsible, gullible, more keen to false news, more fearful of their own health (due to long term effect of vaccine) to the extend of risking other's health.
TRobinson465
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by TRobinson465 »

thepea wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:41 pm
Intoxicant includes anything we ingest, inhale or inject into our system that distorts consciousness, disrupts self-awareness, and that are detrimental to health.

Pharmaceutical is makers of poisons, and this is fitting in my claim but poison can be medicinal too. Many medicines prescribed by Drs are deadly if taken out of recommended dosage. I’m not claiming that these are bad or good but merely seeing things as they are.

Now to address your definition of the fifth precept as simply to prevent heedlessness I offer the for mentioned that was taught and experienced by myself. Buddha certainly didn’t want us to ingest anything that causes the body or mind harm.

I know six people in the community where I reside that have exemptions for a variety of reasons to this vaccine.
Some are from previous vaccine injury and others for psychological reasons. To inject into these people woul cause great harm.
I only know buddha to ever be inclusive with his dhamma teachings, even dangerous mass murderers were welcome to come and receive dhamma. I never heard of a sutta where buddha rejected teaching to someone, especially for someone refusing to take something detrimental to their well being. Even goenka gave the story of the mother preparing food for her child, “I offer you this delicious plate of food all ingredients are so delicious” but the boy refuses because of the black stones. “This is Cardamom not black stones, try it!!” In the end the message is to take off the plate anything you dislike and eat what you like.

I’m simply stunned and feeling that this is a complete breach of the fifth precept to force or exclude anyone for forced vaccinations.
What are you talking about? Virtually everything is dangerous in too high a quantity. Water has been known to kill people who drink too much of it at a time. While your complaint that Goenka restricting people who legitimately cant get the vaccine is a valid complaint, and can be argued as unethical. Dont chalk that up to a bogus claim that it somehow violates the 5th precept when it doesnt. I havent heard such a ridiculous claim about the precepts since someone tried to argue to me that killing germs breaks the 1st precept. Make a thread and complain about Goenka's policy, dont go around linking your politics to what constitutes a breach in the 5th precept.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by Nicolas »

"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.
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seeker242
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by seeker242 »

It's not a breach of the precepts because it doesn't cause heedlessness. If it does not cause or contribute to heedlessness, then it doesn't matter what it is. The 5th precept is only about causing yourself heedlessness. Just because something might be harmful, does not make it against the precept.
thepea
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by thepea »

seeker242 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:23 pm It's not a breach of the precepts because it doesn't cause heedlessness. If it does not cause or contribute to heedlessness, then it doesn't matter what it is. The 5th precept is only about causing yourself heedlessness. Just because something might be harmful, does not make it against the precept.
Intoxicant includes anything we ingest, inhale or inject into our system that distorts consciousness, disrupts self-awareness, and that are detrimental to health,

This is what I’ve been taught and experienced to be the fifth precept.

Does this resonate with you?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by Sam Vara »

Moderator note: There is some scope here for a debate around whether medicines count as intoxicants and are therefore in breach of the 5th precept. But attempts to shoe-horn politics into the debate will be removed as off-topic, as will - in this section - the usual litany of complaints about Goenka retreat centres.
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