On generosity and duty

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Bundokji
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On generosity and duty

Post by Bundokji »

As we are entering the Christmas holidays, i thought i would share few thoughts with the hope of receiving some useful reflections.

I have few friends since childhood. Having friends is associated with having common interests and memories, and as opposed to having a family, friends are people that we believe we had a choice in maintaining their company. They are people that we can turn out to when we need help with reasonable expectations of having them responsive especially if what we are not asking for too much. This is where notions of generosity and duty became relevant and applicable.

Trying to practice or understand the Buddha's teachings made more alert to how suffering, or our vulnerabilities form a cornerstone in our social interactions. In worldly affairs, people try to maintain a balance between self-interest and the notion of love. What that means is that between the practical necessities of being needy by nature, one should make things worse by being emotionally needy, or by not reducing our relationships to mere self-interest. In this context, to maintain the practicality of asking for favors when the need arise, one should complement it with socializing with people for the sake of liking them in an attempt to make our needy nature less obvious. To not contact a friend for a long time, and then, all of the sudden, to call them and ask for a favor out of practical necessity would sound offensive and raises suspensions. The question would arise: where have you been all this time? why you did not remember me before the need arise? what does that say about you? And to tell them the truth that i had no reason or interest to remember them before the need arises would cause even more offense.

In fact, and out of inner consistency, if a friend called me and asked me for help even if we did not speak for ages, i would most likely respond positively. Not having a reason to talk does not negate good-will especially for people who happen to grow up together. Unfortunately, people do not see it in the same way. I do not feel that i have to waste my time periodically talking about uninteresting stuff in order to have a chance of having someone to help me when the need arise. The term "love" has little meaning to me, and i would prefer to see things through through the lens of good-will than love.

How would the above translate when we try to understand kamma and morality through the Buddha's teachings? In my mind, generosity and duty are not mutually exclusive. I have some Christian friends who i have not seen or spoke to in ages, and i texted them some Christmas greetings through whatsapp. I know that they are angry (through third party) because i no longer ask about them.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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S. Johann
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Re: On generosity and duty

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Act-ually, good householder, generosity which is that of real giving, follows after completing virtue, becomes real liberal and not a trade, out of compassion, out of having abound the 5 kinds of stinginess and ingratitude.
As for Dana within the new relationship, that of the Noble Ones, giving of things outwardly, share, is act-ually already a duty, no more done to trade for relation, but to maintain ones community.

Generosity outwardly, as secondary, downwardly, is a matter of compassion.

Do not kill a living being;
do not take what is not given;
do not speak a lie;
do not drink intoxicants;
abstain from sexual intercourse;
do not eat food at night, at the wrong time;
do not wear flower-garlands nor use perfumes;
use the ground as a bed or sleep on a mat.

"This is called the eight-factored observance made known by the Awakened One who has reached the end of suffering.

"With a gladdened mind observe the observance day (uposatha), complete with its eight factors, on the fourteenth, fifteenth and eighth days of the (lunar) fortnight and also the special holiday of the half month. In the morning, with a pure heart and a joyful mind, a wise man, after observing the uposatha, should distribute suitable food and drink to the community of bhikkhus. He should support his mother and father as his duty and engage in lawful trading. A layman who carries this out diligently goes to the devas called "Self-radiant."

Dhammika

"Endowed with these five qualities, a lay follower is a jewel of a lay follower, a lotus of a lay follower, a fine flower of a lay follower. Which five? He/she has conviction; is virtuous; is not eager for protective charms & ceremonies; trusts kamma, not protective charms & ceremonies; does not search for recipients of his/her offerings outside [of the Sangha], and gives offerings here first. Endowed with these five qualities, a lay follower is a jewel of a lay follower, a lotus of a lay follower, a fine flower of a lay follower."

Lay person with conviction

"And what is the treasure of generosity? There is the case of a disciple of the noble ones, his awareness cleansed of the stain of stinginess, living at home, freely generous, openhanded, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to requests, delighting in the distribution of alms. This is called the treasure of generosity."

AN 7.6

“With the abandoning of these five qualities, one is capable of entering & remaining in the second jhana… the third jhana… the fourth jhana; capable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry… the fruit of once-returning… the fruit of non-returning… arahantship. Which five? Stinginess as to one's monastery [lodgings]… one's family [of supporters]… one's gains… one's status, and stinginess as to the Dhamma, (and ingratitude). With the abandoning of these five qualities, one is capable of entering & remaining in the second jhana… the third jhana… the fourth jhana; capable realizing the fruit of stream-entry… the fruit of once-returning… the fruit of non-returning… arahantship.”

stinginess
Saddha means surrender, giving, let go and is the first step on the path.

Giving of material things within ones relation, dependency, is a duty and will case fall from it, if not done proper. Giving for a relation upwardly is skilfull, while giving outwardly downwardly will be for the most thief. Good to be clear on what one relays, lives in trade, depends and where one desires to go to give into desired relation.
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Joe.c
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Re: On generosity and duty

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S. Johann wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:05 pm Saddha means surrender, giving, let go and is the first step on the path.
I think this is inacurrate translation of Saddha. Saddha means devotion to goodness. Same thing when one say Saddhu (Be good). Give up/renounce is only one of the goodness.

To practice goodness is a lonely path. Hence one needs to find a good dhamma friend to support as Buddha said in many Sutta. Having good friends is a full part of spiritual life. To be happy and free of dukkha is the opposite of to have an existence. :)
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Re: On generosity and duty

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Joe.c wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 4:18 am
S. Johann wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:05 pm Saddha means surrender, giving, let go and is the first step on the path.
I think this is inacurrate translation of Saddha. Saddha means devotion to goodness. Same thing when one say Saddhu (Be good). Give up/renounce is only one of the goodness.

To practice goodness is a lonely path. Hence one needs to find a good dhamma friend to support as Buddha said in many Sutta. Having good friends is a full part of spiritual life. To be happy and free of dukkha is the opposite of to have an existence. :)
Not so, and yes, good householder. It's because of an admirable friend, that the first factor of the path (lokuttara paṭiccasamuppāda) could arise. Saddha means give up, let go of what holding back toward path. The good friend could assist in letting go of the five evil friend, the Nīvaraṇas.

Thats required for virture, generosity, samadhi as well. No actually letting go without Saddha at first place on a forward path. The quality of Saddha is found in right resolve/intention and threefold. Surrender.
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Re: On generosity and duty

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S. Johann wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:46 am No actually letting go without Saddha at first place on a forward path. The quality of Saddha is found in right resolve/intention and threefold. Surrender.
Your sentences are confusing and unclear.

As I mentioned, Saddha is devoting to Goodness (Buddha Characters/Qualities). How can one let go without learning/hearing what good and not good is first? Please don't misinterpreted teaching of Buddha.

One needs to have Saddha then gain Samma Ditthi (right view) first, then can proceed to Samma Sankappa (right orientation).
Only on Samma Sankappa, there is the thought of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness.
Here on SN 55.37 Mahānāma Sutta, Buddha Defined Saddha for Lay people
“But how is a faithful lay follower defined?”

“It’s when a lay follower has devoted faithfully in the Realized One’s awakening:

‘That Blessed One is perfected, Who fully awakened from dream of existence, Who fully understood good behaviors and living according to the knowledge, Became Good, Knower of the world, Unsurpassable trainer of true personality, Teacher of gods and humans, Awakened, Blessed one.’

Then they’re considered to be a faithful lay follower.”
Same things for a person who wants to join monastic. One can see on DN 2 Sāmaññaphala Sutta, one heard about Buddha teaching and his good qualities. Then, householder renounce the world and practice to achieve awakening in this life.
“Consider when a Realized One arises in the world, Perfected, Who fully awakened from dream of existence, Who fully understood good behaviors and living according to the knowledge, Became Good, Knower of the world, Unsurpassable trainer of true personality, Teacher of gods and humans, Awakened, Blessed one. He has realized with his own insight this world—with its gods, Māras and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, gods and humans—and he makes it known to others. He teaches Dhamma that’s good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, meaningful and well-phrased. And he reveals a spiritual practice that’s entirely full and pure.

A householder hears that teaching, or a householder’s child, or someone reborn in some clan. They gain faith in the Realized One, and reflect: ‘Living in a house is cramped and dirty, but the life of one gone forth is wide open. It’s not easy for someone living at home to lead the spiritual life utterly full and pure, like a polished shell. Why don’t I shave off my hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness?’
Without Saddha (devote to Goodness) and Samma Ditthi (Right View), one can't have any renunciation thoughts (nekkhammasaṅkappo).
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
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S. Johann
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Re: On generosity and duty

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Joe.c wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:11 pm
S. Johann wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:46 am No actually letting go without Saddha at first place on a forward path. The quality of Saddha is found in right resolve/intention and threefold. Surrender.
Your sentences are confusing and unclear.

As I mentioned, Saddha is devoting to Goodness (Buddha Characters/Qualities). How can one let go without learning/hearing what good and not good is first? Please don't misinterpreted teaching of Buddha.

One needs to have Saddha then gain Samma Ditthi (right view) first, then can proceed to Samma Sankappa (right orientation).
Only on Samma Sankappa, there is the thought of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness.
Here on SN 55.37 Mahānāma Sutta, Buddha Defined Saddha for Lay people
“But how is a faithful lay follower defined?”

“It’s when a lay follower has devoted faithfully in the Realized One’s awakening:

‘That Blessed One is perfected, Who fully awakened from dream of existence, Who fully understood good behaviors and living according to the knowledge, Became Good, Knower of the world, Unsurpassable trainer of true personality, Teacher of gods and humans, Awakened, Blessed one.’

Then they’re considered to be a faithful lay follower.”
Same things for a person who wants to join monastic. One can see on DN 2 Sāmaññaphala Sutta, one heard about Buddha teaching and his good qualities. Then, householder renounce the world and practice to achieve awakening in this life.
“Consider when a Realized One arises in the world, Perfected, Who fully awakened from dream of existence, Who fully understood good behaviors and living according to the knowledge, Became Good, Knower of the world, Unsurpassable trainer of true personality, Teacher of gods and humans, Awakened, Blessed one. He has realized with his own insight this world—with its gods, Māras and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, gods and humans—and he makes it known to others. He teaches Dhamma that’s good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, meaningful and well-phrased. And he reveals a spiritual practice that’s entirely full and pure.

A householder hears that teaching, or a householder’s child, or someone reborn in some clan. They gain faith in the Realized One, and reflect: ‘Living in a house is cramped and dirty, but the life of one gone forth is wide open. It’s not easy for someone living at home to lead the spiritual life utterly full and pure, like a polished shell. Why don’t I shave off my hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness?’
Without Saddha (devote to Goodness) and Samma Ditthi (Right View), one can't have any renunciation thoughts (nekkhammasaṅkappo).
Yes, Yes, good householder ⇓
S. Johann wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:46 am
Not so, and yes, good householder. It's because of an admirable friend, that the first factor of the path (lokuttara paṭiccasamuppāda) could arise. Saddha means give up, let go of what holding back toward path. The good friend could assist in letting go of the five evil friend, the Nīvaraṇas.

Thats required for virture, generosity, samadhi as well. No actually letting go without Saddha at first place on a forward path. The quality of Saddha is found in right resolve/intention and threefold. Surrender.
...and, not to forget proper attention, that it becomes really lonly path beginning with Saddha, Surrender. Or Saddha before proper attention? What would good householder possible desire to claim on this?
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Re: On generosity and duty

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S. Johann wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:54 pm
Not so, and yes, good householder. It's because of an admirable friend, that the first factor of the path (lokuttara paṭiccasamuppāda) could arise. Saddha means give up, let go of what holding back toward path. The good friend could assist in letting go of the five evil friend, the Nīvaraṇas.

Thats required for virture, generosity, samadhi as well. No actually letting go without Saddha at first place on a forward path. The quality of Saddha is found in right resolve/intention and threefold. Surrender.

Again ...and, not to forget proper attention, that it becomes really lonly path beginning with Saddha, Surrender. Or Saddha before proper attention? What would good householder possible desire to claim on this?


It is not admirable friend. An admirable friend can be not wise, not diligent, not knowing the path, etc. One can be admirable, but empty of knowledge of the path.

It is a good people or true people association (Sappurisa saṁsevo). This means someone who know what good is and what not good is to practice daily. It can also be an Ariyan Sangha (4 pairs, 8 types: Sotapanna, Sakadagamin, Anagamin, Arahant - Magga and Phala).

Check SN 55.5 for 4 factors of Stream enterer:
Sir, the factors of stream-entry are associating with good people, listening to the true teaching, focus attention to the source, and practicing in line with the teaching.”
that the first factor of the path (lokuttara paṭiccasamuppāda
There is only 1 Pattica Samuppada, there is no others. If there is please quote a Sutta, not any commentaries.

Yoniso Manasikara is focus attention to the source. When someone hear the true/good teaching (saddhamma), he/she needs to pay focus attention to the teaching to get a Right View! That means one have heard Four Noble Truths or Dependent of Origination. This is the opening of Dhamma Eye.
The good friend could assist in letting go of the five evil friend, the Nīvaraṇas.
Nobody can assist or helping you walk the path, they can only point/show the path to you. You personally needs to walk the path as you heard from the true dhamma. From hearing the true dhamma, then one can understood to let go bad qualities/characters. Not the other way around. The path is gradual depending on your knowledge/personal experience.

Nivaranas can't be totally let go until one has reached Samma Samadhi (jhana), or at least Non-returner level or Arahant. But with opening of dhamma eye, you are independent of others or teacher.

Again Saddha is Not surrender!, But Saddha is devotion/faithful to Buddha Please don't distort Buddha teaching again! You might lose to see the true path in this existence or future! Please hear more true dhamma.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
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Re: On generosity and duty

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Joe.c wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:59 am
Again Saddha is Not surrender!, But Saddha is devotion/faithful to Buddha Please don't distort Buddha teaching again! You might lose to see the true path in this existence or future! Please hear more true dhamma.
How could one holding on house, on stand, ever surrender? Such isn't possible. Why? Because his five evil friends would turn him away from Dukkha.

As, in cases, willing to surrender, good householder, here on causes of avijja and vijja, paṭiccasamuppāda, and lokuttara paṭiccasamuppāda, in relation with admirable friend: Avijha Sutta

And in relation, the same pattern, Samsara, Nibbana -cause, on surrender Saddha: Upanissa Sutta.

Holding on stand, house, not surrender, no ways for giving, generosity, no path of duties for an escape. Why? Because in assosiation with the five evil friends (Nivarana, house and stand defender) and not with the seven admirable (Sambojjhaṅga based on surrender, Saddha).

Leave, surrender, and see of would arise, good householder. It's a very practical factor, this 1 on the path of leaving and hardly leaves one caught in a home, stand. Knowing already, just requires to get more aware of Dukkha (seeing the house breaking down, the stand not defendable anymore). Yet good not to wait on the break off of the body but go for Saddha in advanced.
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Re: On generosity and duty

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Maybe good to get more on topic back...
Bundokji wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:47 pm In my mind, generosity and duty are not mutually exclusive.
That's what is called generosity can be seen as a trade toward a certain relation. Once in relation, generosity becomes a duty, Sila. If this duty, to relay on, fails, the relation is broken, defect.
One without any relation becomes a real giver: Bhagavato, Liberal One. That is where no more trade is involved, debtsless.

Adhisila, higher virtue, goes no more into trade backwardly.
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Re: On generosity and duty

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S. Johann wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:14 pm That's what is called generosity can be seen as a trade toward a certain relation. Once in relation, generosity becomes a duty, Sila. If this duty, to relay on, fails, the relation is broken, defect.
One without any relation becomes a real giver: Bhagavato, Liberal One. That is where no more trade is involved, debtsless.

Adhisila, higher virtue, goes no more into trade backwardly.
Once in relation, the defining line between generosity and duty is choice. The former is done without expectations or obligations hence thought about as an added value. The later is more of an obligation, hence not performing it is seen as a negative and performing it is to be expected.

Outwardly, we are always in relation, hence maintaining relations becomes responsibility. Maintaining or ending a relation should be guided by non-harming as an underlying motive in my limited understanding:
As a bee gathers honey from the flower without injuring its color or fragrance, even so the sage goes on his alms-round in the village.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: On generosity and duty

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If prefering to put it under more common words, thats fine as well, good householder. It was told in that way, so that one could increase relation to the Noble path. Something requiring to trade into by taking it.

And it would be not good, when still depending, to just take. Unrelated and yet still hungy might lead to existance as hungry Ghost, far off from relatives.

So lay peoples duties, known from the Sigala sutta, or the focus on the five proper occasions of generosity are far off more secure that walk like an Ahara-hant.
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Re: On generosity and duty

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I just came across AN 4.32 which i thought is relevant to the topic in hand:
"There are these four grounds for the bonds of fellowship. Which four? Generosity, kind words, beneficial help, consistency. These are the four grounds for the bonds of fellowship."

Generosity, kind words, beneficial help,
& consistency in the face of events,
in line with what's appropriate
in each case, each case.
These bonds of fellowship [function] in the world
like the linchpin in a moving cart.

Now, if these bonds of fellowship were lacking,
a mother would not receive
the honor & respect owed by her child,
nor would a father receive
what his child owes him.
But because the wise show regard
for these bonds of fellowship,
they achieve greatness
and are praised.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: On generosity and duty

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Bundokji wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:23 pm I just came across AN 4.32 which i thought is relevant to the topic in hand:
"There are these four grounds for the bonds of fellowship. Which four? Generosity, kind words, beneficial help, consistency. These are the four grounds for the bonds of fellowship."

Generosity, kind words, beneficial help,
& consistency in the face of events,
in line with what's appropriate
in each case, each case.
These bonds of fellowship [function] in the world
like the linchpin in a moving cart.

Now, if these bonds of fellowship were lacking,
a mother would not receive
the honor & respect owed by her child,
nor would a father receive
what his child owes him.
But because the wise show regard
for these bonds of fellowship,
they achieve greatness
and are praised.

Sadhu

and yet Sila is important to trade up-wardly, e.g proper regard: giving link to resource. (paying regard to parents) No stinginess in regard of family (those one benefits from).

Dana without Sila mostly wouldn't lead upwardly. And the generosity of Robin Hood leads not only him, but many to a bond of poor slaves.
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Re: On generosity and duty

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S. Johann wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:40 am How could one holding on house, on stand, ever surrender? Such isn't possible. Why? Because his five evil friends would turn him away from Dukkha.

As, in cases, willing to surrender, good householder, here on causes of avijja and vijja, paṭiccasamuppāda, and lokuttara paṭiccasamuppāda, in relation with admirable friend: Avijha Sutta

And in relation, the same pattern, Samsara, Nibbana -cause, on surrender Saddha: Upanissa Sutta.
How convenience someone just quote AN 10.61 and SN 12.23 without fully understood what the meaning in it. How can one who hasn't reached Non Returner or Arahant know what the meaning of Avijja is!

If you understand AN 10.61, you should have seen. One needs to start associating with good people first to hear the true dhamma. So who is/are your good people? Have you investigate who the good people are and not from hearsay? Have you still any doubt about who the good people are?

For AN 10.61
... and what is the fuel for focus attention to source? You should say: ‘Faith.’ I say that faith is fueled by something, it’s not unfueled. And what is the fuel for faith (saddha)? You should say: ‘Listening to the true teaching.’ I say that listening to the true teaching is fueled by something, it’s not unfueled. And what is the fuel for listening to the true teaching? You should say: ‘Associating with good people.
for SN 12.23:
You should say: ‘Joy.’
I say that joy has a vital condition.
And what is it?
You should say: ‘Faith.’
I say that faith has a vital condition.
So do you have joy (piti) 24/7 since you have Saddha (faith) when hearing true dhamma? Clearly you haven't understand.
Holding on stand, house, not surrender, no ways for giving, generosity, no path of duties for an escape. Why? Because in assosiation with the five evil friends (Nivarana, house and stand defender) and not with the seven admirable (Sambojjhaṅga based on surrender, Saddha).
So how about the householder Citta Macchikāsaṇḍika (Non returner on SN 41) or the householder Ugga of Hatthigāma (Non returner on AN 8.22)? Clearly, you haven't heard about them?

Again how can one understand Nivarana without being a stream enterer first? Let alone let go of Nivaranas, one needs to be a non returner or arahant!

Note: Nivarana are not five evil friends. They are just hindrances, once you know it is easy to get rid of them with effort. Of course, you need to find one who has mastered the path (arahant) or at least on the path (stream enterer).

Satta Bojjhaṅga is seven awakening factors, only one who is on the path can understand! How can an outsider know? One needs to ask am I already a non returner or arahant, hence I can understand full awakening factors? I doubt it.
Leave, surrender, and see of would arise, good householder. It's a very practical factor, this 1 on the path of leaving and hardly leaves one caught in a home, stand. Knowing already, just requires to get more aware of Dukkha (seeing the house breaking down, the stand not defendable anymore). Yet good not to wait on the break off of the body but go for Saddha in advanced.
Clearly, you haven't understand the Buddha teaching all this time. How can one have saddha without association with good people or hearing true dhamma?

I guess I'll let you find out when your body is breaking off. That would be a silly and waste of an existence.
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Re: On generosity and duty

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Joe.c wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:38 am ...
Appreciation, asuming that it's a well-meant offer to get into good householders house, yet better maybe if trying to come out, based on Surrender. At this point sure merely in the frame of simply generosity, no duty at all as long not related, good householder.
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