Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:36 pm “History of the PLR Act (1979)

PLR was established by the Public Lending Right Act 1979 which gave British authors a legal right to receive payment for the free loan of their books by public libraries. The Act established PLR as an intellectual property right, entirely separate from copyright.”

https://www.bl.uk/plr/about-us
Laughable seeing them do everything they can to deprive people from culture and information and gain every penny for that.
Last edited by rhinoceroshorn on Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
chownah
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by chownah »

Is borrowing a book from a frieind and reading it stealing?....after all you are depiriving the author of the royalties.

You could go to a site which bought a copy of a book and then put it online for others to read it would be the same as borrowing a copy of the book only it is a digital copy.

If you go to a party and they play some music should you leave because they are not paying royalities to the musicians?

If a friend who is learning to play the guitar plays some music without paying royalites to the song writer should you chastise your friend for intellectual theft?

Any intellectual object placed in the public space is public property....

chownah
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Ceisiwr
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by Ceisiwr »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:41 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:36 pm “History of the PLR Act (1979)

PLR was established by the Public Lending Right Act 1979 which gave British authors a legal right to receive payment for the free loan of their books by public libraries. The Act established PLR as an intellectual property right, entirely separate from copyright.”

https://www.bl.uk/plr/about-us
Laughable seeing them do everything they can to deprive people from culture and information and gain every penny for that.
Sorry who is doing that?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
DaniloSS
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by DaniloSS »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:57 am So, when using a downloaded book one doesn't take what is not since taken in the precept means subtraction, removal. Nothing is removed but multiplied. It's even more ethical and more democratic than a library since everyone can own a digital book and read it whenever they want, in opposition to a single book shared at a library.
The precept is simply "Do not take what is not given" and this is quite clear and straightforward.
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:58 pm Actually I don't believe that. I do believe s/he illegally copied a material and shared to the public and I praise him/her for that.
The thing is: I don't legitimate the author's or the industry right in giving permissions over things which can be shared without any alteration in the original product. Sounds, ideas, words, photographies: none of that belongs to anyone.
It's their problem if the creators of certain combination of sounds or words chose to earn a living from such things. There are alternatives, especially nowadays with the internet.
This is wrong view.
Right view begins with "There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed"
A book is fruit someone else's work and effort.
Take the fruit of someone else's work without permission, come up with rationalizations in a attempt to justify your action, and encourage others to do the same is all bad kamma
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:45 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:41 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:36 pm “History of the PLR Act (1979)

PLR was established by the Public Lending Right Act 1979 which gave British authors a legal right to receive payment for the free loan of their books by public libraries. The Act established PLR as an intellectual property right, entirely separate from copyright.”

https://www.bl.uk/plr/about-us
Laughable seeing them do everything they can to deprive people from culture and information and gain every penny for that.
Sorry who is doing that?
Authors who partake with that law. Charging even books from libraries is absurd.
I was reading about this PLR and some authors even want to prohibit the free loan of their books in libraries.
http://www.kaapeli.fi/book/plr.html wrote:Opinions on the PLR have been divided among authors. In March 2000, 288 French authors published an appeal to demand that the gratis lending of their works be prohibited. On the other hand, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian authors, also numerous and many of them famous, have protested loudly against the directive. Thus Dario Fo, for instance, has used the word “barbaric” about the directive on the PLR.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Ceisiwr
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by Ceisiwr »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:07 pm
Authors who partake with that law. Charging even books from libraries is absurd.
It’s their property. No one has a right to someone else’s property, despite the claims of the socialists and commies.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:08 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:07 pm
Authors who partake with that law. Charging even books from libraries is absurd.
It’s their property. No one has a right to someone else’s property, despite the claims of the socialists and commies.
It's not.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

chownah wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:44 pm Is borrowing a book from a frieind and reading it stealing?....after all you are depiriving the author of the royalties.

You could go to a site which bought a copy of a book and then put it online for others to read it would be the same as borrowing a copy of the book only it is a digital copy.

If you go to a party and they play some music should you leave because they are not paying royalities to the musicians?

If a friend who is learning to play the guitar plays some music without paying royalites to the song writer should you chastise your friend for intellectual theft?

Any intellectual object placed in the public space is public property....

chownah
Excellent post, chownah.

rhinoceroshorn
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Ceisiwr
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by Ceisiwr »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:10 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:08 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:07 pm
Authors who partake with that law. Charging even books from libraries is absurd.
It’s their property. No one has a right to someone else’s property, despite the claims of the socialists and commies.
It's not.
If I write a novel and copyright it that is my property. No different from bioscience & pharmaceutical companies and their technology & drugs.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:13 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:10 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:08 pm

It’s their property. No one has a right to someone else’s property, despite the claims of the socialists and commies.
It's not.
If I write a novel and copyright it that is my property. No different from bioscience & pharmaceutical companies and their technology & drugs.
No. It's not your property. It's just an artificial law defending it’s yours created by fat bureaucrats who smoke Cuban cigars.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
DaniloSS
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by DaniloSS »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:19 am I mean, putting monetary value on information like books only limits their access. What is good about that? It's only the author's greed.
Don't you see that you are the greed one?
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

DaniloSS wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:21 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:19 am I mean, putting monetary value on information like books only limits their access. What is good about that? It's only the author's greed.
Don't you see that you are the greedy one?
Wholesome desire for the welfare of human beings who can't afford books.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Sam Vara
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by Sam Vara »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:29 pm
Wholesome desire for the welfare of human beings who can't afford books.
The most wholesome desire of that nature leads to the purchase of books and distribution to those who can't afford them.

Demanding the producers receive no payment for their labour looks like a good way of ensuring that nothing of that nature will be produced.
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by DaniloSS »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:29 pm Wholesome desire for the welfare of human beings who can't afford books.
A possible wholesome purpose does not justify the unwholesome means.
Abandoning anything that is unwholesome is the top priority in the Buddha's teachings.

Justice vs. Skillfulness
Wisdom over Justice
Last edited by DaniloSS on Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: There is no difference between reading a book at a library and downloading it online

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:49 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:29 pm
Wholesome desire for the welfare of human beings who can't afford books.
The most wholesome desire of that nature leads to the purchase of books and distribution to those who can't afford them.

Demanding the producers receive no payment for their labour looks like a good way of ensuring that nothing of that nature will be produced.
Exactly. The same argument was used against Corbyn’s insane idea of price controls on drugs and limiting the pharmaceutical companies patents.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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