Unpleasant piti effects

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Inedible
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Unpleasant piti effects

Post by Inedible »

There was a book I read which said that not all piti experiences have to be pleasant. From time to time when I start trying to meditate again and I increase my daily seated practice time it can happen that I will start to get cold running through my body. If it were hot I would blame Kundalini, but it is very cold. It is also very unpleasant and quickly leads to drowsiness. Because I tend to think that piti should feel good I have tended to believe that I'm just not getting piti. There is definitely no sukkha in it. Has anyone here had to deal with unpleasant piti symptoms?
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Re: Unpleasant piti effects

Post by Spiny Norman »

Inedible wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:53 pm There was a book I read which said that not all piti experiences have to be pleasant. From time to time when I start trying to meditate again and I increase my daily seated practice time it can happen that I will start to get cold running through my body. If it were hot I would blame Kundalini, but it is very cold. It is also very unpleasant and quickly leads to drowsiness. Because I tend to think that piti should feel good I have tended to believe that I'm just not getting piti. There is definitely no sukkha in it. Has anyone here had to deal with unpleasant piti symptoms?
I've never heard of piti being unpleasant. Could you describe this cold feeling a bit more?
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Unpleasant piti effects

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Piti by definition is pleasant. But I understand the sensations you describe. It's nothing significant, don't pay it any special attention. Lots of wild and wonderful sensory distortions.
Just continue, continue.

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Re: Unpleasant piti effects

Post by Inedible »

The cold can become very unpleasant. I have had times when it got so bad that in summer in a room without air conditioning I buried myself in blankets to meditate and still shivered with cold. Like having a bad flu, but only while meditating.

So no one else here so far?
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Re: Unpleasant piti effects

Post by Inedible »

Also it was either this book "The Path to Nibbana How Mindfulness of Loving-Kindness Progresses through the Tranquil Aware Jhanas to Awakening" by David C. Johnson or one of the ones I read as a follow-up to it.
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Pondera
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Re: Unpleasant piti effects

Post by Pondera »

No. My senses feel dead, however it is a pleasant feeling.

Sometimes I drink alcohol to the point where I no longer feel my body.

Alcohol is an addictive substance which can ravish and ruin your life.

Piti has similar results and can’t be detected by a “breathelizer test”. 😉
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

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frank k
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Re: Unpleasant piti effects

Post by frank k »

I really wouldn't call that pīti.
In the EBT suttas, the Buddha goes out of his way to emphasize the mental aspect of piti, and the physical aspect of sukha in the jhanas.
So for simplicity, piti is like the emotional thrill, and the endorphins and pleasure chemicals of the brain are sukha.

Not getting sukha in meditation is caused by energy channels not being opened up enough. I call this condition 'jhana constipation'.
All kind of strange sensations and physical problems happen to most people (can take many years) before one gets a proper jhana with pleasure and no pain.
http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi ... ndex.html

It's completey normal that if one is meditating correctly, the body will use the force and heat from jhana to melt energy blockages and clear up old latent illnesses in the body.

Don't make the mistake some people do thinking meditation causes illness or causes your body to be cold, and cease meditating as a result.

I'm not a medical professional, so I'm not advising you either way on how to meditate, whether to meditate, whether to coordinate with proper medical supervision, etc. I'll just say if I were in your position, I find that western medicine over 95% of the time is pretty worthless for the kind of latent body illnesses that meditation problems are working on, the best help would be highly skilled meditators who are also traditional chinese medicine doctors. Unfortunately that's hard to find. If it was me, I'd just throw on as many blankets as necessary and meditate as much as possible, but seek medical help if something is scaring you. Again, all disclaimers apply, I'm not giving you any advice, just saying what I would try if I was in your situation. Don't sue me.

Please let us know your progress, and what you did to fix it.

Reading your OP again,
the part about getting sleepy tells me it's probably like I said above, the body is using heat and sleep to fight off latent illnesses. Very normal, and happens to everyone whether they meditate or not, IMO.
Body getting super cold doesn't necesarily mean it's not kudnalini, it probably just means you don't have enough of it. A powerful person their meditation would flare up with heat and sweat out body illnesses quickly, and then go back to normal. A weak person would use the same kundalini to fight illness, but they have less heat to work with and would feel very cold. Very normal. IMO.

If you're vegan, you'll have a lot less heat than a lacto ovo veg or an omnivore.
If you're not celibate, that's also a big body heat killer.
So if you want to progress in meditation and overcame latent body illnesses, celibacy is your best bet.
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Inedible
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Re: Unpleasant piti effects

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Some day I'm going to get through all my obstacles and reach jhana. Consistently. When that happens, I'm going to be useful as a guide for a large variety of people on how to get past problems. I've tried everything and it has been expensive.
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Re: Unpleasant piti effects

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Inedible wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:10 pm Some day I'm going to get through all my obstacles and reach jhana. Consistently. When that happens, I'm going to be useful as a guide for a large variety of people on how to get past problems. I've tried everything and it has been expensive.
:thumbsup:

The only other thing you could do is adopt a different method. But I assume you've tried different approaches?
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Re: Unpleasant piti effects

Post by SteRo »

Jhana experiences are completely overrated. It simply does not make sense even from a dhamma perspective to assign importance to merely transient experiences. For the world it is important to categorise experiences as pleasant and unpleasant.
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Re: Unpleasant piti effects

Post by Inedible »

It is like using a candle flame to see to read. First you protect the flame from drafts so it is stable, unmoving, and bright. You then use the candle to see. If you don't protect the flame from drafts, you may even burn your hand as it quickly shifts. That was an old thing I read about having jhana. It holds your mind steady and bright so you can then use it as intended.
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Re: Unpleasant piti effects

Post by DooDoot »

Inedible wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:53 pm There was a book I read which said that not all piti experiences have to be pleasant. From time to time when I start trying to meditate again and I increase my daily seated practice time it can happen that I will start to get cold running through my body. If it were hot I would blame Kundalini, but it is very cold. It is also very unpleasant and quickly leads to drowsiness. Because I tend to think that piti should feel good I have tended to believe that I'm just not getting piti. There is definitely no sukkha in it. Has anyone here had to deal with unpleasant piti symptoms?
The above does not sound like piti. Emotional catharsis is not piti.

The above said, piti can certainly be unpleasant. For a meditator that has discerned the peace of the Nibbana element or, who has reached step 6 of anapanasati or, on a higher level, the 2nd jhana, piti can certainly be unpleasant. There are many suttas about this.

Take care when you people on the street say: "I've never heard of piti being unpleasant", which seems similar to the story in MN 87:
"That's the way it is, householder [said the gamblers]. That's the way it is. Happiness & joy are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear."

So the householder left, thinking, "I agree with the gamblers."
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Re: Unpleasant piti effects

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

frank k wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:17 pm ...
In the EBT suttas, the Buddha goes out of his way to emphasize the mental aspect of piti, and the physical aspect of sukha in the jhanas.
So for simplicity, piti is like the emotional thrill, and the endorphins and pleasure chemicals of the brain are sukha.

Not getting sukha in meditation is caused by energy channels not being opened up enough. I call this condition 'jhana constipation'.
...


Well noted. Thanks.
.


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BlackMagic
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Re: Unpleasant piti effects

Post by BlackMagic »

What happened to sitting?

Sitting stopped and there was skandha, first perception, then sensation, then discursive thinking kundalini not kundalini...

Where'd sitting go? Leave all that mind to Buddha... sati sati sati and sit sitting stops? sati sati sati then you'll be chasing the housebuilder in no time instead of building the house of hot and cold kundalini not kundalini.
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Re: Unpleasant piti effects

Post by Spiny Norman »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:18 pm Piti by definition is pleasant. But I understand the sensations you describe. It's nothing significant, don't pay it any special attention. Lots of wild and wonderful sensory distortions.
Just continue, continue.

Aarg I sound like Goenka! 😄
:goodpost:
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