The Great Jhana Debate

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
auto
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by auto »

pitithefool wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:35 am
auto wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:29 pm
pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:12 pm I think "purified mind consciousness released from the five senses" here likely means that the mind is purified by the attaining the fourth jhana on that occasion, and that it is descending into emptiness, like in MN 121, not necessarily that the person is a non-returner as we understand it.
I didn't check the term 'vimariyādīkatena' which seem to be about conduct. And it is possible that the 'purified mind consciousness..' is about conduct too.
From what I can gather, I think it means something like "unimpeded" or something similar. I think it refers specifically to the mind of a meditator while in samadhi in MN 111, being detached from the phenomena, although 10.81 seems to be about the mind of a Tathagata. I think they both do have to do with conduct but as I understand it, mostly on an instrumental level as it relates to samadhi.

I haven't read any commentary on this so I'm just going off of English translations :mrgreen:
it(mn111) has been discussed elsewhere in forum, that one enters 1st jhana and after exiting 1st jhana one does vipassana then enters 2nd jhana... or what i think it is Sariputta way of doing things, someone who has conduct of an arhant.
I think what you are saying is what i said, except not 4th jhana but one needs have attained cessation of perception and feeling(9nth) before have 'purified mind consciousness released from the five senses'
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Re: Buddha's wife (wives)?

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Pulsar wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:34 pm who invented jhana?
jhana is calm


:shrug:
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Re: Buddha's wife (wives)?

Post by DNS »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:34 pm If so who invented jhana?
Invented is not the word; it is discovered and re-discovered. There were 27 prior Buddhas before Gotama in our known history. Some could also argue that other samaṇa paths may have also discovered jhana, for example Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta.

When the teachings die out, eventually another Buddha revives them by rediscovering jhanas, 4NT, and DO.
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Re: Buddha's wife (wives)?

Post by Pulsar »

DNS wrote 
Invented is not the word; it is discovered and re-discovered.
I used the word invention in a specific sense, if i were to explain it here, that might be considered off topic. (I guess invent would be a synonym of discover)
However i will explain my reason for selecting "invention"  on my Jhana thread, because the answer relates more to the core doctrine, than Buddha's wives.
You wrote 
There were 27 prior Buddhas before Gotama in our known history.
I apologise, when I wrote my answer only the current Buddha was on my mind.
You wrote 
Some could also argue that other samaṇa paths may have also discovered jhana, for example Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta.
When you say some, who are you referring to?
Are you referring to random comments on DW by folks like Ceisiwir? 
If you can bring me at least one sutta from the Sutta Pitaka which says Alara Kalama engaged in jhana, I will say, you taught me something new today.
You wrote 
When the teachings die out, eventually another Buddha revives them by rediscovering jhanas, 4NT, and DO
The tradition says so. So I agree with you.
I love that you have allowed us to express our opinions here. This is not an argument, just a friendly conversation.
Some folks with money buy yachts and sail the seven seas. Here you are, doing something far more sane, related to my favorite Buddha. So thank you.
With love :candle:
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Re: Buddha's wife (wives)?

Post by DNS »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:13 pm You wrote 
Some could also argue that other samaṇa paths may have also discovered jhana, for example Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta.
When you say some, who are you referring to?
Are you referring to random comments on DW by folks like Ceisiwir? 
No, I was just speaking in general, that there are scholars and others who believe jhana or jhana like meditation attainments were around in other ascetic paths; perhaps the Jains and others.
If you can bring me at least one sutta from the Sutta Pitaka which says Alara Kalama engaged in jhana, I will say, you taught me something new today.
Ariyapariyesana Sutta
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Re: Buddha's wife (wives)?

Post by Pulsar »

Dearest DNS: I read the entire sutta, I cannot find anywhere in the sutta where their meditations are called jhana.
Buddha only expressed diasapointment with them, at the end of his encounters with them
Excerpt:
With Alara Kalama..."In this way did Alara Kalama, my teacher, place me, his pupil, on the same level with himself and pay me great honor.
  • But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of nothingness.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left.
The disappointment with second teacher is similarly stated...
Can you pl. cut and paste the few lines where these are called jhana?
Also when I asked you
When you say some, who are you referring to?
Are you referring to random comments on DW by folks like Ceisiwir?
You wrote
No, I was just speaking in general, that there are scholars and others who believe jhana or jhana like meditation attainments were around in other ascetic paths; perhaps the Jains and others.
If scholars say so, they are using the word Jhana in an irresponsible manner.
What does Jhana-like mean? Soteriological significance of Jhana is the dismantling of dependent origination, dismantling of the "I". Isn't DO unique to Buddhism?
The prevalent belief in other traditions during Buddha's time was the reification of 'Self". Therefore I don't see how those meditations could even come close to dismantling of Self. Do you see my point here?
Buddha's meditation was designed to do away with worldly consciousness.
If scholars say Jains and Buddha meditated the same way, they have tragically failed to understand the foundation of Buddha's doctrine.
My answer is getting more complex than I wanted it to be, I apologise, but I must be fair to the
Buddha.
with love:candle:
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Re: Buddha's wife (wives)?

Post by DNS »

By jhana like, I mean similar. It won't be exactly Buddhist jhana, but similar. Note the names of the attainments by the two ascetic teachers, the exact same names given to the higher formless realms of Buddhist jhanas.

I thought you might bring that up; yes I know that the formless realms are not technically called 'jhanas' but they are the formless realms and they always are mentioned after the 4 jhanas throughout the suttas. Due to that, most people refer to the jhanas as the 8 jhanas or if including nirodha-samāpatti, then the 9 jhanas. It becomes 8 or 9 by including the formless realms/attainments.
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Re: Buddha's wife (wives)?

Post by Ceisiwr »

DNS wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:07 am By jhana like, I mean similar. It won't be exactly Buddhist jhana, but similar. Note the names of the attainments by the two ascetic teachers, the exact same names given to the higher formless realms of Buddhist jhanas.

I thought you might bring that up; yes I know that the formless realms are not technically called 'jhanas' but they are the formless realms and they always are mentioned after the 4 jhanas throughout the suttas. Due to that, most people refer to the jhanas as the 8 jhanas or if including nirodha-samāpatti, then the 9 jhanas. It becomes 8 or 9 by including the formless realms/attainments.
There isn’t any reason why they aren’t exactly the same. It seems what makes Jhana or the formless Right or Wrong depends on the view, not the attainment itself. I would say the 1st Jhana of the Buddha was exactly the same experience as the Jhana Mahavira practiced. What differed was the view and understanding of it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Buddha's wife (wives)?

Post by Pulsar »

DNS wrote
yes I know that the formless realms are not technically called 'jhanas' but they are the formless realms and they always are mentioned after the 4 jhanas throughout the suttas.
The formless found in sutta pitaka are not found in all the suttas, they are in some suttas only. In the Sutta pitaka these are only called Arupa samapatthis.
This anomaly is attributed to Upanishadic influences. Buddhists after the time of Buddha practiced these, and introduced these practices into the canon. A great deal has been written on this controversy. I could give you a few references if you care to read, but am sure you don't have time to look into it.
Several scholars reject all suttas that have these arupa samapattis. I feel that is a bit drastic. I think the arupas were later inserted. Ajhan Sona and Henepola Gunaratne have admitted that their presence in the canon is due to Upanishadic influences.
To make a long story short, let me put it this way. The Samma Samadhi of 8-fold path requires only the four jhanas, or the practice of such to end suffering.
Practice of Arupa samapattis retains one in Brahma worlds. You might ask
Why does the canon contain a scheme of Arupas/formless that Buddha rejected?
It is because the canon contains teachings of Buddhist teachers other than that of the Buddha.
Have you ever wondered why the jhana debates continue endlessly?

Pl. don't believe for a moment that Buddha and Jain Mahavira had similar practices, just because some people say so. To the Buddha intention was kamma. To the Jain mahavira action was kamma. To the Jains, to stop karma, all they had to do was stop all activity. To the Buddha, to stop kamma, all intention would have to come to a stop. Just think about it. Can you stop your intentions easily?
This is the simplest example I can give you right now. Hope I did not wear you out. Time for bed in the
East Coast.
Good night! :candle:
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by Pulsar »

My apologies. Did not intend to participate in the Greatt Jhana Debate, since I have not followed that thread, I have no idea why I landed there. Sorry for the interruption.
I also notice I am participating in two different threads at the same time. So I will delete this one... till I figure out what is happening. You will find me on my
jhana thread since the discussion is more appropriate for that thread.
With love :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Sun May 02, 2021 1:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Buddha's wife (wives)?

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Pulsar wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 1:48 am This anomaly is attributed to Upanishadic influences.
This is a baseless assertion, especially since the suttas and āgamas link the annihilationists more with the formless attainments than the eternalists of the Upanishads. Regardless, as has been explained to you 1000 times it doesn't matter even if they did come from the Upanishads (which is dubious). By your logic we should also chuck out the Jhānā because Mahavira practiced the 1st Jhāna first, before the Buddha. We don't because it doesn't matter where they come from, since it is how one views them which makes them Right or Wrong.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by Srilankaputra »

Origin of the Jhana wars (or is it tanha-ditthi-mana wars):

Not understanding, states accompanied by Piti and Sukha can arise in the kamavacara plane. They are Skilful states, but these are not uttari manussadhammas.
Mendicants, a mendicant who has six qualities could shatter Himalaya, the king of mountains, let alone this wretched ignorance!
_Chahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato bhikkhu himavantaṁ pabbatarājaṁ padāleyya, ko pana vādo chavāya avijjāya.

What six?
_Katamehi chahi?

It’s when a mendicant is skilled in entering immersion, skilled in remaining in immersion, skilled in emerging from immersion, skilled in gladdening the mind for immersion, skilled in the meditation subjects for immersion, and skilled in projecting the mind purified by immersion.
_Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu samādhissa samāpattikusalo hoti, samādhissa ṭhitikusalo hoti, samādhissa vuṭṭhānakusalo hoti, samādhissa kallitakusalo hoti, samādhissa gocarakusalo hoti, samādhissa abhinīhārakusalo hoti.

A mendicant who has these six qualities could shatter Himalaya, the king of mountains, let alone this wretched ignorance!”
_Imehi kho, bhikkhave, chahi dhammehi samannāgato bhikkhu himavantaṁ pabbatarājaṁ padāleyya, ko pana vādo chavāya avijjāyā”ti.
https://suttacentral.net/an6.24/en/sujato

See also Jhana samyutta
https://suttacentral.net/sn34

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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