Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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retrofuturist
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Re: Jhana

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Pulsar,
Pulsar wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 5:56 pm Connections to other paths is a suitable Forum.
If you don't pay heed to this alert, I will report you to the Moderators.
...
  • PS anyone wishing to discuss Jhana originated by Jains, pl. head towards "Connections to Other Paths"
Please desist from being the Dhamma police. 🚔

We already have more than enough of that going on.

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Pondera
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pondera »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:14 pm There are some things which we should repeat to ourselves like a mantra. It is not a word that pleases, perhaps short term it helps, say a word, like love or metta, buddo with added h or minus h.
However, when it comes to spelling, errors the sutta compilers made while copying Pali text could lead to warped Dhamma.
In BB's footnotes, he mentions stuff like this. I call it behind the scenes emergence of truth. So before folks embark on "learning Pali" it is better to learn how to correctly engage in Samma Sati and Samma Samadhi. Based on the chats going on about jhana on some of the threads here, one would think folks don't know how to breathe. 
Lessons in breathing...
Eric Frauwallner taught me this. 
Out of all the modern scholars I am indebted to him the most. I had struggled for ten years, to understand the Buddha of the Pali canon, but then Vinasp wrote on DW he spent 20 years doing so, and he did not listen to any of the scholars. 
E. Frauwallner wrote just this,
"if you want to understand Buddha, learn to meditate".
That is all I needed to know? but it took me a few years. 
First I tried Analayo, it was in his PhD thesis, telling us how to enter nibbana via Ekayana. But then Analayo got it all wrong, and anyone who followed him???
Later I stumbled upon a sutta called Origination SN 47.42. Thanissaro was the only scholar, who appeared to notice how very different it was from other instructions on Samma Sati.
Back to E. Frauwallner 
He taught me how to fish, he did not bring me fish. It is only via right meditation that one can understand the Buddha.
  • In the early suttas DO does not function as an abstract theory of causation. Rather it focuses on the way human suffering is produced and the manner by which it is terminated.
How do we create suffering? Buddha is not talking about physical injuries.
To fix that, one must go to modern medicine.
This morning I revisited Sn 4.11 one of the earliest suttas on DO, a sutta that got it right.
It begins with something like
"Why do people quarrel so much?"
The simplest answer is "It is due to misunderstanding of Dhamma"
12th verse of Kalaha vivada runs like this.
"What pursuit leads a person to get rid of form?"
The sutta is not speaking of the form, in a purely physical sense.
  • Corpses have no soteriological importance.
Buddha focussed on bodies equipped with sense bases, these appear in our minds too.
Such bodies are like magic tricks, they mislead you, they imagine all kinds of nonsense, like Asuras exiting through Lily stalks, SN 56.41. Returning to the current sutta, the questioner asks
"How can suffering and pleasure cease to exist? This is what I want to know about?"
Saddhatissa translates. The French translation
"what must i do to make form or shape disappear?"
"How do pleasure and pain go away?"
(translator knows what he is talking about? He understands that the appearance of form or rupa in our minds has something to do with suffering?)
Another translator Hirakawa writes 
"At what stage of one's practice does form cease to exist?"
he appears to think it is a meditative stage.
Could it be 4th Jhana? 
Laurence Khantipola Mills writes
"For one in what state does form cease to be, how bliss and dukkha come to cease as well?"
Mills too understands that the appearance of rupa in mind has something to do with bliss and dukkha.
All these translators understood that crucial step in Dependent Origination.
In fact that is all you need to know, generation of rupa in mind leads to naming. 4th jhana tells you how to stop it.
  • Nama-rupa generation creates samsara.
Read every translation you can get your hands on, of this sutta, you will see how translators understood DO, in varying ways, but they did not make an error. 
Some translators translate text without understanding the Dhamma. They are technicians of language, they stick to every rule in spelling, and grammar. Their translations appear as corpses, strewn in the field of Dhamma.
When a translator has understood how suffering arises, her words  come to life, as if the very Budddha is addressing you.
Let Buddha speak to you, via the canon, not the compilers who inserted their own ideas.
With love  :candle:
Pulsar? Do you think mice have heart attacks?
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

it is samadhi what is 'all the time' and what is developed over time by jhana.
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.37/en/sujato wrote:“The mendicants there have immersion,
“Tatra bhikkhavo samādahaṁsu,
they’ve straightened out their own minds.
Cittamattano ujukaṁ akaṁsu; Variant: ujukaṁ akaṁsu → ujukamakaṁsu (bj, sya-all, km, pts1ed, pts2ed)
Like a charioteer who has taken the reins,
Sārathīva nettāni gahetvā,
the astute ones protect their senses.”
Indriyāni rakkhanti paṇḍitā”ti.
the better example,
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.38/en/sujato wrote:Now at that time the Buddha’s foot had been cut by a splinter.
Tena kho pana samayena bhagavato pādo sakalikāya khato hoti. Variant: sakalikāya → sakkhalikāya (mr)
The Buddha was stricken by harrowing pains; physical feelings that were painful, sharp, severe, acute, unpleasant, and disagreeable.
Bhusā sudaṁ bhagavato vedanā vattanti sārīrikā vedanā dukkhā tibbā kharā kaṭukā asātā amanāpā;
But he endured unperturbed, with mindfulness and situational awareness.
tā sudaṁ bhagavā sato sampajāno adhivāseti avihaññamāno.
And then he spread out his outer robe folded in four and laid down in the lion’s posture—on the right side, placing one foot on top of the other—mindful and aware.
Atha kho bhagavā catugguṇaṁ saṅghāṭiṁ paññāpetvā dakkhiṇena passena sīhaseyyaṁ kappeti pāde pādaṁ accādhāya sato sampajāno.
deity says buddhas immersion is so developed and mind so well freed, does give hint that the samadhi is with grades. Buddha samadhi so strong that the pain what is felt doesn't need forceful suppression.
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.38/en/sujato wrote:Then another deity expressed this heartfelt sentiment in the Buddha’s presence:
Atha kho aparā devatā bhagavato santike imaṁ udānaṁ udānesi:
“See, his immersion is so well developed, and his mind is so well freed—not leaning forward or pulling back, and not held in place by forceful suppression.
“passa samādhiṁ subhāvitaṁ cittañca suvimuttaṁ, na cābhinataṁ na cāpanataṁ na ca sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritagataṁ.
another thing what we can assume(in my opinion) from this easily is that the senses off jhana truly is wrong idea.
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 4:00 pm it is samadhi what is 'all the time' and what is developed over time by jhana.
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.37/en/sujato wrote:“The mendicants there have immersion,
“Tatra bhikkhavo samādahaṁsu,
they’ve straightened out their own minds.
Cittamattano ujukaṁ akaṁsu; Variant: ujukaṁ akaṁsu → ujukamakaṁsu (bj, sya-all, km, pts1ed, pts2ed)
Like a charioteer who has taken the reins,
Sārathīva nettāni gahetvā,
the astute ones protect their senses.”
Indriyāni rakkhanti paṇḍitā”ti.
the better example,
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.38/en/sujato wrote:Now at that time the Buddha’s foot had been cut by a splinter.
Tena kho pana samayena bhagavato pādo sakalikāya khato hoti. Variant: sakalikāya → sakkhalikāya (mr)
The Buddha was stricken by harrowing pains; physical feelings that were painful, sharp, severe, acute, unpleasant, and disagreeable.
Bhusā sudaṁ bhagavato vedanā vattanti sārīrikā vedanā dukkhā tibbā kharā kaṭukā asātā amanāpā;
But he endured unperturbed, with mindfulness and situational awareness.
tā sudaṁ bhagavā sato sampajāno adhivāseti avihaññamāno.
And then he spread out his outer robe folded in four and laid down in the lion’s posture—on the right side, placing one foot on top of the other—mindful and aware.
Atha kho bhagavā catugguṇaṁ saṅghāṭiṁ paññāpetvā dakkhiṇena passena sīhaseyyaṁ kappeti pāde pādaṁ accādhāya sato sampajāno.
deity says buddhas immersion is so developed and mind so well freed, does give hint that the samadhi is with grades. Buddha samadhi so strong that the pain what is felt doesn't need forceful suppression.
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.38/en/sujato wrote:Then another deity expressed this heartfelt sentiment in the Buddha’s presence:
Atha kho aparā devatā bhagavato santike imaṁ udānaṁ udānesi:
“See, his immersion is so well developed, and his mind is so well freed—not leaning forward or pulling back, and not held in place by forceful suppression.
“passa samādhiṁ subhāvitaṁ cittañca suvimuttaṁ, na cābhinataṁ na cāpanataṁ na ca sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritagataṁ.
another thing what we can assume(in my opinion) from this easily is that the senses off jhana truly is wrong idea.
Dont come to ur own conclusion just by speculating something thats not in ur exp so far
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:27 pm Dont come to ur own conclusion just by speculating something thats not in ur exp so far
Do you say these things to make yourself feel better?
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:16 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:27 pm Dont come to ur own conclusion just by speculating something thats not in ur exp so far
Do you say these things to make yourself feel better?
Im telling u dont waste time .. go and do jhana instead of thinking about jhana... im trying to help you
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:21 pm
auto wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:16 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:27 pm Dont come to ur own conclusion just by speculating something thats not in ur exp so far
Do you say these things to make yourself feel better?
Im telling u dont waste time .. go and do jhana instead of thinking about jhana... im trying to help you
I have formal practice, i have practice results and can grade them to grinding small things to eventually a big one comes.

i used to think concentration is absorption too, it was when i didn't have any practice results yet. I can tell you how i did got result and also concentration.
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:36 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:21 pm
auto wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:16 pm
Do you say these things to make yourself feel better?
Im telling u dont waste time .. go and do jhana instead of thinking about jhana... im trying to help you
I have formal practice, i have practice results and can grade them to grinding small things to eventually a big one comes.

i used to think concentration is absorption too, it was when i didn't have any practice results yet. I can tell you how i did got result and also concentration.
If u really attained jhana.. pls create a white elephant in my room ... also pls tell me your practice and result
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Jhana

Post by Coëmgenu »

"If you've achieved jhāna, please emanate 10,000 Śākyamunis à la Vairocana," said Coëmgenu in jest.

Do you have a virtuous woman for him to enter as a white elephant so that he can be born an Āryabodhisattva in his final life? That was a rhetorical question. You don't need to answer it.

In all seriousness, is there a reason you asked him to be a white elephant? Is that an ability of jhānins according to a Pāli sutta that I don't know about?
Seated in solitude, the body and the mind are made calm and pure.
Moved by serenity, they act for each others' salvation.
The nature of the mind, like this, is alien to all corruption
when the body, as it should, sits at peace.

(T848.46b23 Vairocana Sūtra)
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 3:55 pm If u really attained jhana.. pls create a white elephant in my room ... also pls tell me your practice and result
Routine: sit so long till you don't want to sit anymore, then force yourself to continue sit. Till you can conceptualize this urge to quit practice at the moment it arises.

I think there are plenty of ways, but the result is the 'space what is still' the moment you have conceptualized it and that stillness act as a basis and allows you to concentrate in a certain way what applies force to the center of the brain.
That specific way of concentration is what i would call concentration in terms of what absorption or concentration means. It is momentary at first but the capacity to do it grows(over the spawn of weeks, months) and while at it there will be gone through couple of experiences before reach the center and when you reach center first time it will get you to a complete dark space where the observer is unmoving and the moment you think there is little small light and you come out of this state. This state never occur again this way but it will occur again..i have never stopped, the longest time i literally forget about meditation was two weeks after i thought i got it, arhant stage attained.

Is it development of samadhi? Suttas won't come tell to your ear if it is or not. So yeah i have claimed all attainments, there just are so many things happen its normal to overestimate.
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 5:28 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 3:55 pm If u really attained jhana.. pls create a white elephant in my room ... also pls tell me your practice and result
Routine: sit so long till you don't want to sit anymore, then force yourself to continue sit. Till you can conceptualize this urge to quit practice at the moment it arises.

I think there are plenty of ways, but the result is the 'space what is still' the moment you have conceptualized it and that stillness act as a basis and allows you to concentrate in a certain way what applies force to the center of the brain.
That specific way of concentration is what i would call concentration in terms of what absorption or concentration means. It is momentary at first but the capacity to do it grows(over the spawn of weeks, months) and while at it there will be gone through couple of experiences before reach the center and when you reach center first time it will get you to a complete dark space where the observer is unmoving and the moment you think there is little small light and you come out of this state. This state never occur again this way but it will occur again..i have never stopped, the longest time i literally forget about meditation was two weeks after i thought i got it, arhant stage attained.

Is it development of samadhi? Suttas won't come tell to your ear if it is or not. So yeah i have claimed all attainments, there just are so many things happen its normal to overestimate.
nirvana is cessation of existence.. so what u saying is u are existing in space like still perception and telling arhant attained?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:15 pm nirvana is cessation of existence.. so what u saying is u are existing in space like still perception and telling arhant attained?
I said the moment you get pass the urge to quit practice, which is a long endeavor in itself, comes a state. Since there are plenty of details, i forgot that from that state you get the idea how to concentrate, the state ends, you can do concentration based on the knowledge you got from that state.
I didn't claim that state is nirvana and i said the comment about attaining arhanthood was due lack of knowledge of there is more things.
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:06 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:15 pm nirvana is cessation of existence.. so what u saying is u are existing in space like still perception and telling arhant attained?
I said the moment you get pass the urge to quit practice, which is a long endeavor in itself, comes a state. Since there are plenty of details, i forgot that from that state you get the idea how to concentrate, the state ends, you can do concentration based on the knowledge you got from that state.
I didn't claim that state is nirvana and i said the comment about attaining arhanthood was due lack of knowledge of there is more things.
thanks... I wish u all the best as u r trying so u can reach as u already took first step..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:42 pm thanks... I wish u all the best as u r trying so u can reach as u already took first step..
your welcome, try to practice yourself too.
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