Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Auto wrote
It occurs to me now that the eye and the perception of form are citta sankharas(mental process[Sujato's transl]). And they won't cease unless namarupa is ceased.
You are right. Not quite sure what you mean by citta sankhara. Abhidhamma by supplying a variety of words to express the worldly consciousness, has complicated the simplicity of its understanding. People are lost in translation, but I think you have the right idea. It is critical to get rid of Nama-rupa since as long as you retain these two, you keep whirling in samsara.
Pulsar wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:35 pm
What is Ceiswir's idea of jhana? Can you explain? I am clueless as to the connection between C's understanding and SN 35.117.
His idea at that time were that there is no hearing and seeing happening in a jhana. I don't agree with that, Sutta just keep resembling his idea.
That is deluded thinking, maybe he has changed his mind, and it looks like you did not agree with that. What do you mean when you say "Sutta just keep resembling his idea"?
For now i adhere to the idea what ceases in jhana(1-4) is namarupa(inclination).
Quite so.
And if that is ceased then one will understand with an eye of wisdom the eye&perception of form(salayatana).
That i believe is the infamous awareness of an awareness. And why the emphasis of 'one should understand the dimension..' is that it is not completely obvious that one needs specifically acknowledge this eye of wisdom.

What do you think of awareness of awareness(being aware of seeing)?
Not sure how to clarify this, but it seems like you understand that salayatana in a soteriological sense, has ceased for the 4th jhana meditator temporarily, or permanently for the Arahant.
As for Eye of wisdom ... some say "eye of dhamma" for those that have gotten up to Sotapanna. If you mean eye of wisdom as wisdom of Arahant ... let me try to explain.
You bring in awareness of awareness.. this is a tricky phrase. Forget about the Upanisad awareness. If by awareness of awareness you mean
  • emptiness of emptiness
as some traditions call it, then it basically means Arahant has seen how empty all worldly dhammas are.
That is the ultimate realization of emptiness, two plusses cancel each other. Final emptiness of the realized one, is unimaginable bliss.
You and I cannot imagine that, with 4th jhana there is a chance of a glimpse.
At this point I cannot explain it any better, is this sufficient? perhaps with time I can do a better job.
With love :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:30 pm
That is deluded thinking, maybe he has changed his mind, and it looks like you did not agree with that. What do you mean when you say "Sutta just keep resembling his idea"?
I haven’t changed my mind.
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
Mr. Seek
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Re: Jhana

Post by Mr. Seek »

Pulsar, with metta, regarding your reply to me:

1) Some texts from the Sutta Nipata that I favour; won't go into details; read, tried, came up with conclusions, bam.

2) I don't claim to have read (let alone understand) everything. Yes, probably, I've skipped some, but the majority of noteworthy stuff I've gone through.

3) Yes, I tried 'eliminating' the suttas that were, as per my personal suspicions and conclusions, not authentic. It's more complicated than that though. Everything is just mixed. It's not on the level of suttas, it's on the level of sentences, even words, even variant readings. You can't say X sutta is authentic or not, because it's just one big mix of various sentences and words--some early, others late, third misinterpreted, etc. Obviously, late doesn't necessarily mean no useful meanings are found within, but still.

4) I did leave room for error, which is why I said that jhana and hence liberation are MORE OR LESS lost for everyone BUT the people who are willing to put the time and effort. If I thought it's a truly lost cause, then I would simply state that the Dhamma has been lost--which I didn't. The Dhamma hasn't been lost, I think, it's just buried under 2500 years worth of garbage. Apologies for the language, but it's true; it's just that there are very few, critical, honest people, willing to research deep into the matter (through both theory and practice, or either), and in the end conclude that we're f***. Again, sorry for the language, but it's true. I'll quote Alexander Wynne, he says it more diplomatically: "The biggest problem in Buddhist Studies is that nobody knows what the Buddha taught."

I have read MN 83, and I just read most of it again, on your mention. No worries, I haven't given up hope. On the contrary, I'm fairly confident of the path I'm throdding. I just want (and try) to practice the real thing and get the real results, as most of us here... who are clearly having doubts. If there were no doubts, there wouldn't be hundreds of books on the matter and thousands of forum threads.

5) Of course, thousands of hours is just a random statement; all I'm saying is it would require a whole lot of effort, persistence, honesty, and or luck, an enormous amount. It's an expression, that's all, like with the Indian 84000. Get me? It could take less, it could take more; but it'd be brutal.

Just sharing my latest/recent insights with these two posts. Carry on with the debate folks, nothing to see here. :D

Metta,
Snp 5.11—"Having nothing, free of clinging: That is the island, there is no other."
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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

there is no awareness of awareness... its just conceptual thinking... buddha is really intelligent and speaker of truth.. just today I let go of awareness of awareness thinking and obsession ... uff...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:30 pm ..
1. Reading newspaper, pertains to the senses.
2. Knowing that you read newspaper pertains to the dhamma, refined form
3. There is also understanding of knowing after the refined form is surmounted/overcame.

3rd simply said is the awareness of an awareness. These 1.2.3 things are tied to the regions on the body. Didn't Sutta say consciousness is tied to the body? it did.

With emptiness of emptiness and the things you said regards to it, you are mixing realization(bodhi) with understanding(pajānāti and veditabba).
Pulsar wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:30 pm Not quite sure what you mean by citta sankhara. Abhidhamma by supplying a variety of words to express the worldly consciousness, has complicated the simplicity of its understanding. People are lost in translation, but I think you have the right idea. It is critical to get rid of Nama-rupa since as long as you retain these two, you keep whirling in samsara.
you seem thinking there is nama and rupa(two things). That is why you can't understand what is mental sankharas? and thus you also think eye and perception and form is the rupa(eye) and perception(nama)?
if that is true then why you not read that it is sight what is rupa not the eye? and see the contradiction?
Last edited by auto on Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:02 am there is no awareness of awareness... its just conceptual thinking... buddha is really intelligent and speaker of truth.. just today I let go of awareness of awareness thinking and obsession ... uff...
your post is simply an abomination of ignorance.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:31 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:02 am there is no awareness of awareness... its just conceptual thinking... buddha is really intelligent and speaker of truth.. just today I let go of awareness of awareness thinking and obsession ... uff...
your post is simply an abomination of ignorance.
Conciiusness arise only along with its object... without arising of conciiusness there is no knowing
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

“Consciousness, bhikkhu, while standing,
might stand engaged with form …
engaged with feeling …
engaged with perception … engaged with volitional formations;
  • based upon volitional formations, established upon volitional formations, with a sprinkling of delight, it might come to growth, increase, and expand.
“Bhikkhu, though someone might say:
‘Apart from form, apart from feeling,
apart from perception,
apart from volitional formations,
I will make known the coming and going of consciousness,
its passing away and rebirth, its growth, increase, and expansion’
—that is impossible.
These excerpts are from Udana sutta SN 22.55. It is a revealing sutta, you don't need a cushion, to inform you how to be rid of consciousness.
You don't need a jhana formula to inform you how to enter jhana, just observe how papanca comes into play, when you are stuck on hindrances.
When rupas arise in the mind, just ignore it, rupa will only develop into feeling if you fancy the rupa,
  • it only comes to growth if there is a sprinkling of delight
If you  disengage from form, rest of DO cannot come into play, vinnana cannot have a pot to piss in.
Also know that form arises only if it is fed, that does not mean spaghetti, rice and black beans.
If you withhold the food, what happens to forms that arise in mind?  they collapse. See SN 22.56...where Buddha says 
  • As long as I didn’t truly understand these five grasping aggregates from four perspectives, (lit. four turnings by way of turning around the 4 truths with respect to each of the five aggregates) I didn’t announce my supreme perfect awakening.
This turning is called Catuparivatta.
  • But when I did truly understand these five grasping aggregates from four perspectives, I announced my supreme perfect awakening.
And how are there four perspectives?  
I directly knew form, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation. I directly knew feeling …  perception … intentions …  consciousness, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation.
And that is how Buddha awakened according to SN 22.56. It is important to understand, this process. When rupas pile atop each other, when feelings pile atop each other, when intentions embody each other,
that is when aggregation or embodiment happens, it is the force of aggregation that can trip us.
Arahant does not suffer from the calamity of aggregation.
Come to think of it, the role aggregation played in Buddha's awakening.
If we think of things outside the box, perhaps we might wake up, bit by bit.
Path is gradual, writes Kevaddha sutta.
With love :candle:
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:35 pm
auto wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:31 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:02 am there is no awareness of awareness... its just conceptual thinking... buddha is really intelligent and speaker of truth.. just today I let go of awareness of awareness thinking and obsession ... uff...
your post is simply an abomination of ignorance.
Conciiusness arise only along with its object... without arising of conciiusness there is no knowing
You are conveniently forgetting about the eye?
Consciousness arises dependent on the eye and its object. In dependent origination chain it is saṅkhāra, dependent on what the viññāṇa arises. It looks like the object and the eye is saṅkhāra and you then should think in these terms.
Also, the absence of an object doesn't mean the consciousness can't get established, when there still are anusaya(underlying tendencies) - nāmarūpa.

If thinking about it frustrates you, it necessarily doesn't mean it is unintelligible.

Besides that the object is just an supporting(ārammaṇa) condition for consciousness becoming established.(based on sn12.40)
Last edited by auto on Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:56 pm ..
yes, meditation is very easy on a paper or as a plan.
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:56 pm You don't need a jhana formula to inform you how to enter jhana, just observe how papanca comes into play, when you are stuck on hindrances.
When rupas arise in the mind, just ignore it, rupa will only develop into feeling if you fancy the rupa,
The post you made is imprecise due lack of understanding of what entails giving up defilements.
Rūpa is a means to escape. You can't give up rūpa if it is still suitable for establishing consciousness mainly due not knowing a better way.

as you mentioned if there is sprinkling of delight. It means the rūpa is good(to get fixated upon and establishing consciousness).
Pulsar wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:56 pm it only comes to growth if there is a sprinkling of delight
Last edited by auto on Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Auto wrote
yes, meditation is very easy on a paper or as a plan.
let me try in poetry, that which does not work in prose...
silliness
i am worn out by the silliness, the concepts that
go in circles, Meditation! Is it doable?
O no it is easy on paper, but not on cushion?
Did Buddha resort to a teaching that is impossible?
Why do you need a cushion? when it is all in the
mind..
for the one disciplined, thus?
Why is samsara such a pain in the butt? what point is it?
these arguments meaningless!
does it fetch you joy, when you push me into a wordless corner
and cry foul:
I say you win and I withdraw. Does that make you
happy? Then i shall sing Happy birthday to you, at the birth of
your foolishness.
I wish you not "Many Happy Returns of this Day!"
With love :candle:

Afterwards ... Auto wrote further ...
The post you made is imprecise due lack of understanding of what entails giving up defilements.
It is precise for those who understand "How to give up defilements?" Spend a little more time taking refuge in the Buddha.
you continued..
Rūpa is a means to escape. You can't give up rūpa if it is still suitable for establishing consciousness mainly due not knowing a better way.
Not so for those who understand how suffering originates, with rupa.
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:21 pm .
.
https://suttacentral.net/dn12/en/sujato wrote:“Is it really true, Lohicca, that you have such a harmful misconception:
“saccaṁ kira te, lohicca, evarūpaṁ pāpakaṁ diṭṭhigataṁ uppannaṁ:
‘Should an ascetic or brahmin achieve some skillful quality, they ought not inform anyone else. For what can one person do for another?
‘idha samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā kusalaṁ dhammaṁ adhigaccheyya, kusalaṁ dhammaṁ adhigantvā na parassa āroceyya, kiñhi paro parassa karissati.
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:21 pm Afterwards ... Auto wrote further ...
The post you made is imprecise due lack of understanding of what entails giving up defilements.
It is precise for those who understand "How to give up defilements?" Spend a little more time taking refuge in the Buddha.
you continued..
Rūpa is a means to escape. You can't give up rūpa if it is still suitable for establishing consciousness mainly due not knowing a better way.
Not so for those who understand how suffering originates, with rupa.
i don't expect you to evolve in 1 second, of course your post is as ignorant as your last post made couple seconds back.

So better to take day off.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Auto are you out of your mind?
Lohicca heard: DN 12 writes, (pl do not misrepresent the buddha)
‘That Blessed One is perfected, a fully awakened Buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those who wish to train,
teacher of gods and humans, awakened, blessed.’ He has realized with his own insight this world...
and he makes it known to others.
He teaches Dhamma that’s good in the beginning, good in the middle,
and good in the end, meaningful and well-phrased.
And he reveals a spiritual practice that’s entirely full and pure.
and he teaches that suffering begins with rupa formation....in the mentally proliferating
puthujjana.
Auto writes further
i don't expect you to evolve in 1 second, of course your post is as ignorant as your last post made couple seconds back.
For the ignorant, everything appears ignorant. How else can it be? Read the sutta couple of more times, before you give a commentary on it, in case you mislead other good people.
So better to take day off.
good advice to both of us, not to waste our precious
time. Inhale, exhale, that will do the trick. Was not Buddha's teaching so simple, this consciousness to be destroyed is right in front of our eyes? why did the monk in Kevaddha sutta go in search of all
those realms? Of course he had to return to Buddha.
Amen!
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