Correct method regarding jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:55 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:46 pm [It is easy to be critical and to make assumptions or interpretations based on the suttas.

As the saying goes, 'the Dhamma is not found in books'.
If we don’t compare meditation methods, experiences and explanations of the Dhamma in general with the suttas then the Dhamma or Jhana can just mean whatever somebody wants it to mean, which means it’s nothing really at all. The suttas are our standard. If we find something contradicts them then we should reject it. The rather soft “Jhana” that Leigh et al. teach finds little support from said texts, whilst the absorbed models do.

We have to have a way of separating the wheat from the chaff, or all we have instead is a plethora of meaningless “personal truths”.
I said a few times that comparison with suttas is one important aspect.
And btw Leigh, like Ayya Khema, does this extensively.

But so many people are much more engaged in that than in doing the actual practice. It's a big mistake I have fallen into in the past also.

Theres even a passage I think from Ajahn Chah where he tells people to stick to a method and get somewhere with it is the most important thing.
Searching and critiquing different techniques and trying different ones is simply restlessness which he strongly discourages.
Having proficiency in one method also gives you the basic skills to become proficient in all of them also so persistence and developing your practice is key, comparative analysis can come later gradually.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

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shoenhad wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:37 am
Pondera wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:36 am
Access concentration doesn’t produce rapture. And rapture is to be distinguished from sukha.
I know bhante gunaratana and others saying jhanic factors do manifest in access concentration.
I simply don’t agree with the convention of “access concentration”. Whatever it is, it has either been called something else by the Buddha or it was never delineated by the Buddha at all - as far as suttas go.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:55 am [lBut so many people are much more engaged in that than in doing the actual practice. It's a big mistake I have fallen into in the past also.
How do you know that? Seems like an assumption to me. It’s perfectly possible for people to meditate regularly and to critique Leigh et al.
And btw Leigh, like Ayya Khema, does this extensively.
They do, and their arguments leave a lot to be desired.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by un8- »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:46 pm

So again, just put the meditation hours in and worry about your practice according to the method you feel is correct and suitable for you. What others have attained and interpretations of their practice or the suttas can't be resolved fully on an intellectual level anyway.

Imagine if the amount of time that is put into thinking and arguing about different textual interpretations and jhana was instead put into practicing, once one had gained an understanding of the fundamentals.

I can see why the Thai Ajahns give so little instruction and instead would ask you to simply return when the mind can be kept continuously with the breath for an extended period.
It doesn't work like that. You can spend a lifetime "putting in the meditation hours" and still have wrong view. It's not a matter of putting in hard work, it's a matter of understanding correctly what needs to be understood. You can't brute force your way into nibbana and think after 10,000 hours of meditation a magical event will happen and you will have attained nibbana, doesn't work like that in the suttas. In the suttas, it's more a matter of investigating and seeing something you didn't see before, it's not a routine of putting in the hours, it's a constant scrutinizing of one's beliefs and actions.

Does this sound like "putting in the hours" to you?
Mendicants, an ethical person, who has fulfilled ethical conduct, need not make a wish: ‘May I have no regrets!’ It’s only natural that an ethical person has no regrets. When you have no regrets you need not make a wish: ‘May I feel joy!’ It’s only natural that joy springs up when you have no regrets. When you feel joy you need not make a wish: ‘May I experience rapture!’ It’s only natural that rapture arises when you’re joyful. When your mind is full of rapture you need not make a wish: ‘May my body become tranquil!’ It’s only natural that your body becomes tranquil when your mind is full of rapture. When your body is tranquil you need not make a wish: ‘May I feel bliss!’ It’s only natural to feel bliss when your body is tranquil. When you feel bliss you need not make a wish: ‘May my mind be immersed in samādhi!’ It’s only natural for the mind to be immersed in samādhi when you feel bliss. When your mind is immersed in samādhi you need not make a wish: ‘May I truly know and see!’ It’s only natural to truly know and see when your mind is immersed in samādhi. When you truly know and see you need not make a wish: ‘May I become disillusioned and dispassionate!’ It’s only natural to become disillusioned and dispassionate when you truly know and see. When you’re disillusioned and dispassionate you need not make a wish: ‘May I realize the knowledge and vision of freedom!’ It’s only natural to realize the knowledge and vision of freedom when you’re disillusioned and dispassionate.
The path only begins once you have Right View, and then with proper understanding and proper practice one can hopefully attain Supermundane right view and the fruit of stream entry. Once you do that, then you can start putting in the hours, until then you could be wasting a lot of time thinking you're practicing rightly when you're not.

This is why in the Gotami sutta, the Buddha laid out sign posts so that you can know if you're actually understanding and practicing correctly. If you're still attached to the world and politics, then you're not, doesn't matter if you're lay or ordained. Just read the suttas on the lay people Hattaka, Ugga, and Citta.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

un8- wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:50 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:46 pm

So again, just put the meditation hours in and worry about your practice according to the method you feel is correct and suitable for you. What others have attained and interpretations of their practice or the suttas can't be resolved fully on an intellectual level anyway.

Imagine if the amount of time that is put into thinking and arguing about different textual interpretations and jhana was instead put into practicing, once one had gained an understanding of the fundamentals.

I can see why the Thai Ajahns give so little instruction and instead would ask you to simply return when the mind can be kept continuously with the breath for an extended period.
It doesn't work like that. You can spend a lifetime "putting in the meditation hours" and still have wrong view. It's not a matter of putting in hard work, it's a matter of understanding correctly what needs to be understood. You can't brute force your way into nibbana and think after 10,000 hours of meditation a magical event will happen and you will have attained nibbana, doesn't work like that in the suttas. In the suttas, it's more a matter of investigating and seeing something you didn't see before, it's not a routine of putting in the hours, it's a constant scrutinizing of one's beliefs and actions.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
If you learn a method from a Thai Ajahn you do what he says and put in the work. Yes you can question and investigate but not too much.
Textual analysis alone cannot take you very far.
Only one you have reached a certain level in your concentration will things start to make more sense.
un8- wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:50 pm
Does this sound like "putting in the hours" to you?
Mendicants, an ethical person, who has fulfilled ethical conduct, need not make a wish: ‘May I have no regrets!’ It’s only natural that an ethical person has no regrets. When you have no regrets you need not make a wish: ‘May I feel joy!’ It’s only natural that joy springs up when you have no regrets. When you feel joy you need not make a wish: ‘May I experience rapture!’ It’s only natural that rapture arises when you’re joyful. When your mind is full of rapture you need not make a wish: ‘May my body become tranquil!’ It’s only natural that your body becomes tranquil when your mind is full of rapture. When your body is tranquil you need not make a wish: ‘May I feel bliss!’ It’s only natural to feel bliss when your body is tranquil. When you feel bliss you need not make a wish: ‘May my mind be immersed in samādhi!’ It’s only natural for the mind to be immersed in samādhi when you feel bliss. When your mind is immersed in samādhi you need not make a wish: ‘May I truly know and see!’ It’s only natural to truly know and see when your mind is immersed in samādhi. When you truly know and see you need not make a wish: ‘May I become disillusioned and dispassionate!’ It’s only natural to become disillusioned and dispassionate when you truly know and see. When you’re disillusioned and dispassionate you need not make a wish: ‘May I realize the knowledge and vision of freedom!’ It’s only natural to realize the knowledge and vision of freedom when you’re disillusioned and dispassionate.
The path only begins once you have Right View, and then with proper understanding and proper practice one can hopefully attain Supermundane right view and the fruit of stream entry. Once you do that, then you can start putting in the hours, until then you could be wasting a lot of time thinking you're practicing rightly when you're not.
Well as you mentioned yourself once right view is there the practice needs to be put in on the remainder of the path.
The quote you give from the Buddha shouldn't be misunderstood, it doesn't mean these things which just happen spontaneously but the work will be much easier and not have to be 'willed' as much.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by un8- »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:31 pm

I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
If you learn a method from a Thai Ajahn you do what he says and put in the work. Yes you can question and investigate but not too much.
Textual analysis alone cannot take you very far.
Only one you have reached a certain level in your concentration will things start to make more sense.



Well as you mentioned yourself once right view is there the practice needs to be put in on the remainder of the path.
The quote you give from the Buddha shouldn't be misunderstood, it doesn't mean these things which just happen spontaneously but the work will be much easier and not have to be 'willed' as much.
It doesn't matter who the "teacher" is, it also doesn't matter what the "method" is either, it doesn't matter how hard you practice too.

How do you know that's the right thing to do? If someone is coming from a place of ignorance, asking them to trust some guru and execute a technique for thousands of hours and hopefully one day a magic event will happen and they will understand, is not only a foolish risk to take, but also wrong view.

You're not supposed to guru/teacher worship, you're supposed to study the suttas (the true dhamma) and see for yourself here and now. Not follow a guru and wait for a magical event sometime later.
"Of course you are uncertain, Kalamas. Of course you are in doubt. When there are reasons for doubt, uncertainty is born. So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them
You wrote "the quote shouldn't be misunderstood", I'm telling you, odds are, the person you're following that's telling you execute a technique for thousands of hours "and then you'll one day understand" has already misunderstood the dhamma.

Hence you wrote "once right view is there, one should practice", I'm telling you "right view isn't there"
Then Mara the Evil One manifested himself in the form of a brahmin, with a large matted topknot, clad in an antelope hide, old, crooked like a roof bracket, wheezing, holding a staff of udumbara wood. He approached those bhikkhus and said to them: “You, sirs, have gone forth while young, lads with black hair, endowed with the blessing of youth, in the prime of life, without having dallied with sensual pleasures. Enjoy human sensual pleasures, sirs; do not abandon what is directly visible in order to pursue what takes time.

“We have not abandoned what is directly visible, brahmin, in order to pursue what takes time. We have abandoned what takes time in order to pursue what is directly visible. For the Blessed One, brahmin, has stated that sensual pleasures are time-consuming, full of suffering, full of despair, and the danger in them is still greater, while this Dhamma is directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.”
In other words, if you're waiting for a magical experience to happen later, you haven't attained right view. Thus any "method" you use, will be used incorrectly.

Even if the guru is the Buddha himself, you shouldn't follow the Buddha, since that implies you don't see, and thus don't have Right View. If you follow a guru and execute a method, you don't have right view.
Bhikkhus, even though a bhikkhu might hold on to the hem of my robe and follow close behind me step by step, if he is covetous for objects of desire, strongly passionate, malevolent, corrupt in thought, unmindful, uncomprehending, unconcentrated, of wandering mind and uncontrolled faculties, he is far from me and I am far from him. What is the reason? That bhikkhu does not see Dhamma. Not seeing Dhamma, he does not see me.

Bhikkhus, even though a bhikkhu might live a hundred leagues away, if he is not covetous for objects of desire, not strongly passionate, not malevolent, uncorrupt in thought, with mindfulness established, clearly comprehending, concentrated, of unified mind and controlled faculties, he is close to me and I am close to him. What is the reason? That bhikkhu sees Dhamma. Seeing Dhamma, he sees me.”
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

un8- wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:12 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:31 pm

I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
If you learn a method from a Thai Ajahn you do what he says and put in the work. Yes you can question and investigate but not too much.
Textual analysis alone cannot take you very far.
Only one you have reached a certain level in your concentration will things start to make more sense.



Well as you mentioned yourself once right view is there the practice needs to be put in on the remainder of the path.
The quote you give from the Buddha shouldn't be misunderstood, it doesn't mean these things which just happen spontaneously but the work will be much easier and not have to be 'willed' as much.
It doesn't matter who the "teacher" is, it also doesn't matter what the "method" is either, it doesn't matter how hard you practice too.

How do you know that's the right thing to do? If someone is coming from a place of ignorance, asking them to trust some guru and execute a technique for thousands of hours and hopefully one day a magic event will happen and they will understand, is not only a foolish risk to take, but also wrong view.

You're not supposed to guru/teacher worship, you're supposed to study the suttas (the true dhamma) and see for yourself here and now. Not follow a guru and wait for a magical event sometime later.
"Of course you are uncertain, Kalamas. Of course you are in doubt. When there are reasons for doubt, uncertainty is born. So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them
You wrote "the quote shouldn't be misunderstood", I'm telling you, odds are, the person you're following that's telling you execute a technique for thousands of hours "and then you'll one day understand" has already misunderstood the dhamma.

Hence you wrote "once right view is there, one should practice", I'm telling you "right view isn't there"
Then Mara the Evil One manifested himself in the form of a brahmin, with a large matted topknot, clad in an antelope hide, old, crooked like a roof bracket, wheezing, holding a staff of udumbara wood. He approached those bhikkhus and said to them: “You, sirs, have gone forth while young, lads with black hair, endowed with the blessing of youth, in the prime of life, without having dallied with sensual pleasures. Enjoy human sensual pleasures, sirs; do not abandon what is directly visible in order to pursue what takes time.

“We have not abandoned what is directly visible, brahmin, in order to pursue what takes time. We have abandoned what takes time in order to pursue what is directly visible. For the Blessed One, brahmin, has stated that sensual pleasures are time-consuming, full of suffering, full of despair, and the danger in them is still greater, while this Dhamma is directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.”
In other words, if you're waiting for a magical experience to happen later, you haven't attained right view. Thus any "method" you use, will be used incorrectly.

Even if the guru is the Buddha himself, you shouldn't follow the Buddha, since that implies you don't see, and thus don't have Right View. If you follow a guru and execute a method, you don't have right view.
Bhikkhus, even though a bhikkhu might hold on to the hem of my robe and follow close behind me step by step, if he is covetous for objects of desire, strongly passionate, malevolent, corrupt in thought, unmindful, uncomprehending, unconcentrated, of wandering mind and uncontrolled faculties, he is far from me and I am far from him. What is the reason? That bhikkhu does not see Dhamma. Not seeing Dhamma, he does not see me.

Bhikkhus, even though a bhikkhu might live a hundred leagues away, if he is not covetous for objects of desire, not strongly passionate, not malevolent, uncorrupt in thought, with mindfulness established, clearly comprehending, concentrated, of unified mind and controlled faculties, he is close to me and I am close to him. What is the reason? That bhikkhu sees Dhamma. Seeing Dhamma, he sees me.”
I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to argue.

There would be various criteria for you to place confidence in a teacher, including their knowledge of dhamma and teachings, demeanor, reputation and observing the mental states you quote in the sutta.

Once you have the basic technique from a teacher you have confidence in, and if it is in accordance with what you understand from the suttas then practice it until you gain a real understanding of what the suttas mean.
Until then it is only very limited and intellectual understanding.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:15 am Ayya Khema herself claimed to have attained to all 8 rupa and arupa jhanas and I personally have confidence in her that she did
The old grandma passed away 25 years ago. There is no evidence grandma attained any jhana.
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:36 pm Once you have the basic technique from a teacher you have confidence in, and if it is in accordance with what you understand from the suttas then practice it until you gain a real understanding of what the suttas mean.
Until then it is only very limited and intellectual understanding.
The suttas literally say jhana is attained by making "letting go" ("vossagga") the object of meditation. The suttas do not instruct the yogic practises of Brasington and Thanissaro. The suttas says:
And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go (vossagga), attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment (vossagga). He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening... persistence as a factor for awakening... rapture as a factor for awakening... serenity as a factor for awakening... concentration as a factor for awakening... equanimity as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment (vossagga).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
In fact, the suttas do not even instruct to watch the breathing. All the suttas instruct is to establish mindfulness and, that when mindfulness is established, the breathing naturally automatically becomes an object of meditation due to the mind being quiet due to being mindful of letting go. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

if body is kept still breath will reduce and become more fine but jhana Piti and sukha may or may not be there which implies one is not in jhana as still 5 sense working
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by befriend »

Leigh braisingtons method worked well for me in the sense that I could easily discern impermanence more clearly after the mind/citta was feeling pleasant. I thought praise buddha praise buddha and also namo Tassa bhagavato arahato sammasambudhassa repeatedly then focused on the pleasant feelings this took about 20 minutes then like I said my vipassana was more clear.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by befriend »

It might not be hard jhana but it is Samatha vipassana atleast. It's like doing metta before mindfulness which is a valid technique.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

befriend wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:40 pm Leigh braisingtons method worked well for me in the sense that I could easily discern impermanence more clearly after the mind/citta was feeling pleasant. I thought praise buddha praise buddha and also namo Tassa bhagavato arahato sammasambudhassa repeatedly then focused on the pleasant feelings this took about 20 minutes then like I said my vipassana was more clear.
It's a good and valid method of practice in accordance with the suttas.
Don't take seriously the criticism of their way of practice or of Ven.Thannisaro and his practice.
The people criticizing are generally not meditators.
You should speak more about your positive experiences with the method and do not let people try to sow doubt or confusion in you by misinterpreting suttas and arguing over Pali terms.
The practice is the thing, the Dhamma is not found in books.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by befriend »

Jhana is just a tool it's not like an end to itself, it's purpose is to make the mind malleable in order to see things more clearly.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: Correct method regarding jhana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

befriend wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:43 pm It might not be hard jhana but it is Samatha vipassana atleast. It's like doing metta before mindfulness which is a valid technique.
At best it’s access concentration.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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