Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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samseva
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by samseva »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:50 pm Kāmehi can be interpreted to mean “sense objects”. So, one abandons the objects of the 5 senses (sights, sounds etc).
Yes. Kāmehi being the—five sensuous (kāma)—mental "sense objects."
(not the 6th sense of the mind, due to being kāma, and obviously not the senses themselves)

Although... vivicceva might not be the complete seclusion from the five different kāma:
Vivicca (indecl.) [ger. of viviccati] separating oneself from (in- str.), aloof from D i.37; A iii.25; J vi.388; Dhs 160; Pug 68; Vism 139, 140 (expld in detail). — Doubtful reading at Pv i.119 (for viricca?). — As viviccaṁ (& a°) at J v.434 in mean- ing "secretly" (=raho paṭicchannaṁ C.).
Viviccati [vi+vic] to separate oneself, to depart from, to be alone, to separate (intrs.) Vin iv.241; ger. viviccitvā DhsA 165, & vivicca (see sep.). — pp. vivitta. — Cp. viveceti.
Still, "vivicceva kāmehi" is before entering jhāna—and it wouldn't be surprising for the complete and further seclusion to happen once in actual jhāna.
Here, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati
auto
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:00 pm Na: Not

te: Those

kāmā ?

yāni: whichever

citrāni: beauties

loke: world

Not those kāmā whichever beauties world

Not those kāmā whichever are beauties in the world


The kāmā here are external things in the world.
I think you are correct in case of the world where the pleasure originates except not in case of the person, since persons sensual pleasure is his greedy intension.
https://suttacentral.net/mn80/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: The pleasure and happiness that arises from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called sensual pleasure.
Yaṁ kho, kaccāna, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ idaṁ vuccati kāmasukhaṁ.
..
‘From the senses comes sensual pleasure. From sensual pleasure comes the best kind of sensual pleasure, which is said to be the best thing there.’
‘kāmehi kāmasukhaṁ, kāmasukhā kāmaggasukhaṁ tattha aggamakkhāyatī’ti.
Kāmasaṅkappo
https://suttacentral.net/mn78/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: And what are unskillful thoughts?
Katame ca, thapati, akusalā saṅkappā?
Thoughts of sensuality, of malice, and of cruelty.
Kāmasaṅkappo, byāpādasaṅkappo, vihiṁsāsaṅkappo—
These are called unskillful thoughts.
ime vuccanti, thapati, akusalā saṅkappā.
Saṅkapparāgo
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.34/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “The world’s pretty things aren’t sensual pleasures.
“Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke,
Greedy intention is a person’s sensual pleasure.
Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo;
I think the confusion so far have been of not differiating between person and the world(at least in my case). I suspect some even say there is no self or person. (its even possible that i am the biggest noselfers here, but i don't know it yet)
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frank k
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Re: Using Lite Jhana to enter Deep Jhana?

Post by frank k »

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... sutta.html

...
MN 111 is simply an expanded list from AN 4.41's section 3 and section 4 (AN 9.36 explains how destroying asava happens WHILE in the 4 jhanas and first 7 perception attainments).

You can see Ven. Dhammando and the person he quotes, are just relying on some kind of useless sophistry, similar to the circular (fallacious) logic B. Analayo uses to analyze MN 111. The real issue is that the definition of 'jhana' they're relying on is not the Buddha's definition of Jhana (in the EBT), but late Theravada Abhidhamma circa Vism. period, which is an entirely different samadhi development system.

It would be strongly advisable not to use the term 'Jhana lite' to denigrate those who place primacy on the Buddha's words over the redefinition and reinterpretation of Buddhists who came hundreds of years later. I can not imagine the kind of heavy karma incurred by this, it's essentially slandering the Buddha.
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