Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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pitithefool
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by pitithefool »

ToVincent wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:23 am
pitithefool wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:53 pm .....
Personally, I translate it: "separating oneself from objects of sensual pleasures".
But that's my take.

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I think that makes sense. I really feel that the whole point of jhana is to happiness that doesn't depend on sense pleasures rather than anything else. A happiness that's more reliable and can quell the thirst of the mind more thoroughly and more consistently than sense pleasures can.
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ToVincent
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by ToVincent »

pitithefool wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:43 pm I really feel that the whole point of jhana is to happiness that doesn't depend on sense pleasures rather than anything else. A happiness that's more reliable and can quell the thirst of the mind more thoroughly and more consistently than sense pleasures can.
I could not agree more.
Something different than on a purely moral sense - more like the only way to reach higher and finer states.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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pitithefool
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by pitithefool »

ToVincent wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:00 pm
pitithefool wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:43 pm I really feel that the whole point of jhana is to happiness that doesn't depend on sense pleasures rather than anything else. A happiness that's more reliable and can quell the thirst of the mind more thoroughly and more consistently than sense pleasures can.
I could not agree more.
Something different than on a purely moral sense - more like the only way to reach higher and finer states.
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Indeed :anjali: :anjali: :anjali:
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BrokenBones
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by BrokenBones »

pitithefool wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:43 pm
ToVincent wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:23 am
pitithefool wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:53 pm .....
Personally, I translate it: "separating oneself from objects of sensual pleasures".
But that's my take.

Personal jhāna Cheatsheet: https://rentry.co/m3inp
.
.
I think that makes sense. I really feel that the whole point of jhana is to happiness that doesn't depend on sense pleasures rather than anything else. A happiness that's more reliable and can quell the thirst of the mind more thoroughly and more consistently than sense pleasures can.
Absolutely spot on. A total cutting off of sense objects seems a temporary fix that will leave you back at square one when you re-emerge. It's almost like hiding in a room to avoid your problems rather than tackling them head on and finding a more fruitful and pleasurable alternative to grief and desire.
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pitithefool
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by pitithefool »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:39 pm
pitithefool wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:43 pm
ToVincent wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:23 am
Absolutely spot on. A total cutting off of sense objects seems a temporary fix that will leave you back at square one when you re-emerge. It's almost like hiding in a room to avoid your problems rather than tackling them head on and finding a more fruitful and pleasurable alternative to grief and desire.
Awesome! And like ToVincent said, it's like the door out of samsara. If it's practiced wisely, it leads to a place where you don't need to feed any more at all.
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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Are there any references to the specific view that "one cannot hear sound in the first jhana" older than the Kathavatthu? I read that section on hearing sound and it uses the same "sound is a thorn argument" but seems to leave out AN 10.72 which renders it meaningless.

I'll quote here:
You say that one in Jhāna can hear sound, and quote the Word as to it being for First Jhāna a “thorn”. Now it was further said that thought applied and sustained is a thorn for Second Jhāna—does one in Second Jhāna have applied and sustained thought? … Again, it was further said that the mental factor last eliminated is a thorn for the stage newly attained—zest for Third, respiration for Fourth Jhāna, perception of visible objects for consciousness of space-infinity, this perception for that of consciousness as infinite, this perception for that of nothingness, perception and feeling for cessation of these in trance. Now is “the thorn” actually present on the winning of the stage whence it is pronounced to be a thorn? If not, then how can you say that the “thorn” of hearing sound is present to one in First Jhāna?
AN 10.72:
Mendicants, there are these ten thorns. What ten? Relishing company is a thorn for someone who loves seclusion. Focusing on the beautiful feature of things is a thorn for someone pursuing the meditation on ugliness. Seeing shows is a thorn to someone restraining the senses. Lingering in the neighborhood of females is a thorn to celibacy. Sound is a thorn to the first absorption. Placing the mind and keeping it connected are a thorn to the second absorption. Rapture is a thorn to the third absorption. Breathing is a thorn to the fourth absorption. Perception and feeling are a thorn to the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling. Greed, hate, and delusion are thorns.
Notice the firs three listed as thorns and compare that with the argument made in the Kathavatthu.

Here's Thanissaro's commentary on this:
This passage has been cited as proof that a person in the first jhāna must be unable to hear sounds, the argument being that directed thoughts and evaluations are not present in the second jhāna, rapture is not present in the third, and so forth, so sounds must not be present in the first. This argument, however, ignores two points in the larger context of the sutta:

a) If “thorn” were to mean something that cannot be present without destroying what is thorned, then nearness to women would destroy a man’s celibacy, watching a show would destroy one’s guarding of the senses, and so on. And yet it is possible to maintain one’s celibacy and one’s guard over ones’ senses in situations of this sort. An interpretation of “thorn” that consistently fits all ten examples, however, would be something that creates difficulties for what is thorned. Thus to say that noise is a thorn for the first jhāna would simply mean that noise makes it difficult to enter or stay in the jhāna.

b) If the Buddha had wanted to make the point that noise cannot be heard in the first jhāna, he would have criticized the elder monks for going to the trouble of leaving the Great Forest, and recommended that if they wanted to escape the disturbance of noise, they should have entered the first jhāna and dwelled comfortably there instead.
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by auto »

thorn,
perhaps only the pleasant sound is the thorn(in the training of the Noble One*)?
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.244/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: Suppose a person was to enter a thicket full of thorns. They’d have thorns in front and behind, to the left and right, below and above. So they’d go forward mindfully and come back mindfully, thinking, ‘May I not get any thorns!’
Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, puriso bahukaṇṭakaṁ dāyaṁ paviseyya. Tassa puratopi kaṇṭako, pacchatopi kaṇṭako, uttaratopi kaṇṭako, dakkhiṇatopi kaṇṭako, heṭṭhatopi kaṇṭako, uparitopi kaṇṭako. So satova abhikkameyya, satova paṭikkameyya: ‘mā maṁ kaṇṭako’ti.

In the same way, whatever in the world seems nice and pleasant is called a thorn in the training of the Noble One.
Evameva kho, bhikkhave, yaṁ loke piyarūpaṁ sātarūpaṁ, ayaṁ vuccati ariyassa vinaye kaṇṭako”ti.
When they understand what a thorn is, they should understand restraint and lack of restraint.
Iti viditvā saṁvaro ca asaṁvaro ca veditabbo.
what is the training of the Noble One?
I think it includes jhāna.
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:08 am Returning to the topic at hand, rather than induction we can arrive at the jhānā being free of 5 sense experience via deduction:

P1) Kāmā are external sensory objects.
P2) The jhānā are secluded from the kāmā.
C) Therefore, the jhānā are without sensory contact.

We could try similar reasoning with saññāmanasikārā. The difference then between the jhānā and the formless is the presence of rūpa.
Is unpleasant sensory object also kāma?
Can you have lust over things you don't like?
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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auto wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 4:50 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:08 am Returning to the topic at hand, rather than induction we can arrive at the jhānā being free of 5 sense experience via deduction:

P1) Kāmā are external sensory objects.
P2) The jhānā are secluded from the kāmā.
C) Therefore, the jhānā are without sensory contact.

We could try similar reasoning with saññāmanasikārā. The difference then between the jhānā and the formless is the presence of rūpa.
Is unpleasant sensory object also kāma?
Can you have lust over things you don't like?
Looking back I don't think my argument is particularly strong here. Whilst I still hold the view that kāmehi in the Jhāna pericope are the external kāmaguṇa (with sensual desire coming under "unwholesome states), this does not necessarily mean that the 5 senses are completely shut off. What it does mean is that there is a bodily seclusion from that which can provoke lust (vivicceva kāmehi) and a mental seclusion (vivicca akusalehi) from the hindrances, which includes sensual desire. I think my argument regarding saññāmanasikārā was also flawed, since it seems to simply mean attentions directed to an inappropriate object for x meditation rather than indicating any sort of singular perception.

Regarding the issue of hearing sounds in Jhāna, the Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra has some interesting things to say. According to it you can hear sounds whilst in Jhāna, but said sounds can become a distraction
The Yogācārabhūmi and the *Prakaraṇāryavācaśāstra maintain that one is able to hear sounds while in a meditative attainment.209 According to the Yogācārabhūmi, one hears sounds through ear-consciousness while in a meditative attainment; at the same time, one's mind-consciousness is still concentrated.210 That is, ear-consciousness perceives sounds first in a meditative attainment, and then mind-consciousness searches for sounds. Because of this searching, the meditator has to emerge from the meditative attainment. If there is no hearing of sounds or active searching for sounds, the meditator will not emerge from the meditative attainment. Therefore, the Yogācārabhūmi insists that it must be the case that one can hear sounds while in a meditative attainment, and not just so when after one emerges from it. Kuiji 窺基 (632-682), in his commentary on the
Yogācārabhūmi, indicates that this statement of hearing sounds while in a meditative attainment is for refuting the Sarvāstivāda viewpoint that the five sensory consciousnesses are not present while one is in dhyāna.
Issues in Śamatha and Vipaśyanā: A Comparative Study of Buddhist Meditation

Regarding the experience of the 5 senses whilst in Jhāna, the Sarvāstivādin position is quite confusing at times. They argue that one cannot experience the 5 senses whilst in Jhāna yet the 5 senses can occur in the 1st Jhāna but not the rest, but also there can be a bodily experience whilst in Jhāna. This is similar to the Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra which argues that the 5 senses are not experienced whilst in Jhāna yet there is a bodily experience, but this bodily experience isn't through bodily consciousness.
Regarding bodily feeling, the Yogācārins recognize that a meditator experiences bodily pleasure while in dhyāna, but it is not body-consciousness that is aware of bodily pleasure. According to the *Abhidharmasamuccayavyākhyā, Sthiramati says that the five sensory consciousnesses do not occur while one is dhyāna, but that ālaya-consciousness sustains the body to experience bodily pleasure.235 According to Vasubandhu and Asvabhāvas‟ commentaries on the *Mahāyānasaṃgraha, they also state that no five sensory consciousnesses are present while one is in dhyāna, but that mind-consciousness depends on the body to perceive bodily pleasure through similar body-contact.236 Their commentaries stand on the position of six consciousnesses,237 not eight consciousnesses,238 to discuss bodily feeling. Vasubandhu and Asvabhāva explain that dependent on body, mind-consciousness perceives bodily feeling while one is in dhyāna, not in the formless attainments.
Issues in Śamatha and Vipaśyanā: A Comparative Study of Buddhist Meditation

This sound awfully like the idea of a "subtle body", which is similar to ideas we find in Kumārajīva's Dhyāna sutras
Question: What are the marks of attaining the first dhyāna?

Answer: At first, one uses proper mindfulness to admonish and halt five desires. Although one has not attained the ground [of the first dhyāna], the mind is joyful, delightful, soft, harmonious, and gentle; the body has bright light. When one attains the first dhyāna, its mark is that it continuously changes, increases, and excels [than before]. Because the four elements of the Desire Realm spread fully all over the body, which is soft, harmonious, gentle, and joyful signs, and the mind leaves bad desire and unwholesome deed, then the samādhi of single-minded thought can cause one having joy and happiness.183 Forms created in the Form Realm have the feature of bright light. Hence, the cultivator sees the wonderful and bright light emitting from the body internally and externally. The mind of the cultivator changes differently. Within the angry situation, one does not get angry. Within the joyful situation, one does not have [much] joy. The eight kinds of worldly dharmas cannot move the cultivator.184 Faith, respect, shame, and conscience largely change and multiply. As for the clothes, food, and drink, one does not crave and attach to them. One only considers various wholesome deeds and meritorious morality as valuable, and others are worthless. One does not attach to even the five celestial desires, how much more the five impure desires of the secular world. For those who have attained the first dhyāna, these are the features.
Essential Explanation of The Method of Dhyāna

All interesting stuff for sure. Going back to the Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra I get the impression so far that what is stopped in the 1st Jhāna is thinking and pondering (vitakka-vicāra) about the 5 senses and sensual pleasures, and is instead replaced with thinking and pondering (vitakka-vicāra) about renunciation, non-ill will, harmlessness and the meditation. For example, it has this to say regarding vitakka-vicāra
“In the first quietened-thought, the object-of-link is acquired through investigation and analysis, samādhi is its dependency, joy is the state experienced, and pleasure is the removal of gross heaviness

Question: Why are there investigation and analysis in the first quietened thought?

Answer: Through them, one can arouse disgust with the sensual desire realm and enter first quietened thought. In addition, in first quietened thought, one is still not able to observe the faults of investigation and analysis”
With a more detailed explanation of Jhāna here
Therein, what is one-pointedness of the mind? 76 , 77 Answer: It has a homogeneous cognitive object 78 of repeated mindfulness and is conjoined with a faultless pleasure which flows on continuously. That serial continuity79 of the mind is called “equipoise” 80 as well as “one-pointedness of a wholesome mind”

How does he again and again keep on being mindful? Answer: Teachings that are taken up and heard, and admonition and instruction that are obtained from the teacher — having this as the predominant force, 82 having manifested the sign pertaining to the equipoised stage, 83 he continuously brings up that cognitive object and abides in the mindfulness that is conjoined with the continuous flow 8

Therein, what is the nine-mode stilling of the mind? 90 Here, the monk stills the mind internally, stills it intensively, stills it firmly, stills it closely, subdues it, calms it, makes it completely quiescent, makes it one-pointed, places it in equipoise. 91

How does he still [the mind]? [The practitioner,] having withdrawn [the mind] from all external cognitive objects, for the purpose of non-distraction, he binds [it] internally. Then this first binding for non-distraction is the stilling [of the mind]

How does he subdue [the mind]? Those signs on account of which that mind of his is distracted — namely, by the signs of forms, sound, smell, taste and tangible objects, 95 and by the sign of greed, hatred, ignorance, woman and man,96 therein, he first comprehends them with the ideation of being disadvantageous. With that as the predominant force, he does not permit the flowing of his mind into these signs. In this way, he subdues [the mind].

How does he calm [the mind]? On account of those discursive thoughts [vitakka-vicāra]: discursive thoughts of senuality, etc., 97 and on account of those secondary defilements: hindrances of sensual desire etc., 98 there comes to be agitation of his mind, therein, he first comprehends them with the ideation of being disadvantageous. 99 With that as the predominant force, he does not permit the flowing of his mind into these discursive thoughts and secondary defilements. In this way, he calms [the mind].
Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 6:10 pm This is similar to the Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra which argues that the 5 senses are not experienced whilst in Jhāna yet there is a bodily experience, but this bodily experience isn't through bodily consciousness.
is the bodily consciousness there kāyaviññatti?
abhidhamma by Narada Thera wrote: (e) “Joy” arises in all types of consciousness, excluding
those accompanied by displeasure, and indifference
(equanimity), body-consciousness,42 and the fourth
Jhàna consciousness. (121 – (2 + 55 + 2 + 11) = 51)
kāyaviññatti seem to be material quality what accompanies consciousnesses where joy doesn't arise.
wrote:(9) Kàyavi¤¤atti vacãvi¤¤atti vi¤¤attiråpaü nàma.
(9) Communicating material quality (29)—viz:—
bodily intimation and vocal intimation.
viññatti,
wrote:29. Vi¤¤àtti is that by means of which one communicates
one’s ideas to another and one understands another’s
intentions. It is done both by action and speech—
kàyavi¤¤atti and vacãvi¤¤atti. The former is caused by the
‘air-element’ (vàyodhàtu) produced by mind (cittaja); the
latter by the ‘earth-element’ produced by the mind. The
duration of Vi¤¤atti is only one thought-moment.
text you quoted says,
wrote:Regarding bodily feeling, the Yogācārins recognize that a meditator experiences bodily pleasure while in dhyāna, but it is not body-consciousness that is aware of bodily pleasure.
could refer to the fact that the joy doesn't arise within that(kāyaviññatti) material quality when accompanied with the consciousness. Stock 3rd jhana description could mean that when saying piti fades away.
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 6:10 pm
How does he subdue [the mind]? Those signs on account of which that mind of his is distracted — namely, by the signs of forms, sound, smell, taste and tangible objects, 95 and by the sign of greed, hatred, ignorance, woman and man,96 therein, he first comprehends them with the ideation of being disadvantageous. With that as the predominant force, he does not permit the flowing of his mind into these signs. In this way, he subdues [the mind].
Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra
Thank you! Would you please provide the source of this quote?
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Assaji wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:09 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 6:10 pm
How does he subdue [the mind]? Those signs on account of which that mind of his is distracted — namely, by the signs of forms, sound, smell, taste and tangible objects, 95 and by the sign of greed, hatred, ignorance, woman and man,96 therein, he first comprehends them with the ideation of being disadvantageous. With that as the predominant force, he does not permit the flowing of his mind into these signs. In this way, he subdues [the mind].
Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra
Thank you! Would you please provide the source of this quote?
A translation of the Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra found in "Doctrines of Spiritual Praxis from Abhidharma to Mahāyāna Yogācāra: With Special Reference to the Śrāvakabhūmi of the Yogācārabhūmi-śāstra" by Cheung Tsui Lan Liza
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by nirodh27 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 6:10 pm
Looking back I don't think my argument is particularly strong here. Whilst I still hold the view that kāmehi in the Jhāna pericope are the external kāmaguṇa (with sensual desire coming under "unwholesome states), this does not necessarily mean that the 5 senses are completely shut off. What it does mean is that there is a bodily seclusion from that which can provoke lust (vivicceva kāmehi) and a mental seclusion (vivicca akusalehi) from the hindrances, which includes sensual desire. I think my argument regarding saññāmanasikārā was also flawed, since it seems to simply mean attentions directed to an inappropriate object for x meditation rather than indicating any sort of singular perception.

Regarding the issue of hearing sounds in Jhāna, the Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra has some interesting things to say. According to it you can hear sounds whilst in Jhāna, but said sounds can become a distraction.

...

Going back to the Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra I get the impression so far that what is stopped in the 1st Jhāna is thinking and pondering (vitakka-vicāra) about the 5 senses and sensual pleasures, and is instead replaced with thinking and pondering (vitakka-vicāra) about renunciation, non-ill will, harmlessness and the meditation.
Seems that I have not wasted my time in vain after all.
Regarding the experience of the 5 senses whilst in Jhāna, the Sarvāstivādin position is quite confusing at times. They argue that one cannot experience the 5 senses whilst in Jhāna yet the 5 senses can occur in the 1st Jhāna but not the rest, but also there can be a bodily experience whilst in Jhāna. This is similar to the Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra which argues that the 5 senses are not experienced whilst in Jhāna yet there is a bodily experience, but this bodily experience isn't through bodily consciousness.
I don't know about Sarvāstivādin speculation, but it seems that is thanks to them if we have MA102 where first jhana is narrated from 1st person perspective from the Buddha and the similes that both nikayas and agamas gave us are clearly saying that the internal sense feeling of the body is there in the jhanas (in the second quietened-thought, 2nd jhana, we have the metaphor of a mountain that is very interesting), while the external sense objects are in the background, unattended and we should make everything to support this condition since there's the suggestion of the Buddha to find quiet-places to avoid any kind of disturbances (I would dare to call them thorns :smile: ).

The description of the disturbances in the Samahita is this:
These (provisions) refer to instructions and guidance congruous with concentration, accumulation of provisions for the practice of
all concentrations, desirous184 cultivation, and a heart disgust of becoming. With respect to distractions and non-distractions, one knows thoroughly and attentively, and others cannot mentally harm him. These (mental harms) may be caused by other human or non-human, by sound (noise etcetera), or by one’s effort
Going back to the Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra I get the impression so far that what is stopped in the 1st Jhāna is thinking and pondering (vitakka-vicāra) about the 5 senses and sensual pleasures, and is instead replaced with thinking and pondering (vitakka-vicāra) about renunciation, non-ill will, harmlessness and the meditation.
It seems more than just an impression, since it is very well spelled:
Answer: Through them, one can arouse disgust with the sensual desire realm and enter first quietened-thought.
There are two periods: active and abiding.
During the “active” period, speeches can arise. There is still such function within the first quietened-thought, as linguistic activities still exist.
During the “abiding” period, from second quietened-thought onwards, the three types of activities are sequentially ceased due to the progressive strength of concentrations.
But if you add MA102 you have the two steps: the step in which disgust/disenchantment is intentional and takes effort and the actual entrance into the first jhana and the step in which thoughts of disgust/disenchantment are automatic and that is the start of the first jhana: when you immerge yourself into the clear waters of renunciation. This fits well with the second jhana, because this automatic thinking after a while can be abandoned when first jhana's dispassion and u-turn feels stable (there's a sutta that says that one have not to force passage from 1st to 2nd jhana for example) since there's no need to the mind to waste energy in sankharing thoughts that are already ingrained in the meditator's mind. It is very nice to find perfect accordance between Nikayas, Agamas and Samahita, although MN19 is clearly (as analayo say) organized in a strange way and MA102 makes more sense, apart from being more detailed.

One could argue that the step with intentionality is already first jhana (what is called in the Samahita "till being confined by
deliberate practice"), but I still think that until there's intentionality it is not an "entering" because it doesn't feel like that. Btw there's room for thinking that first jhana is already in the intentional part maybe, that would make first jhana "easy" if one have right view and discourses about concentrative abilities are really pointless, all it matters is renunciation and the disposition of the heart that rejoyce at the renunciation. I don't have a definite answer and I think it is not needed once that is clear that there is one step with 2 modalities or two steps. I feel that real joy btw is only the second step, the automatic one, but hey.

What there's no room to discuss is the nature of Vitakka & Vicara, and the fact that skillful thought is present is very evident everywhere we look and cross-confirmed in all the main traditions.
what is stopped in the 1st Jhāna is thinking and pondering (vitakka-vicāra) about the 5 senses and sensual pleasures,
You can actually still ponder the 5 senses and sensual pleasures, but you reaction will be wholly different: disenchantment, disgust, dispassion, seeing the advanges of renunciation, which are evident in the jhana itself being happiness one of them. The important thing is not to take the cord, the string, but instead to (happily) renounce it.
Assaji wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:09 pm
There's a full "new" translation of the relevant part of the Yogacarabhumi-sastra: the Samahita out there. I don't know if the translator is reliable, but there's a lot to be taken from this document:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u45toeahjk8ov ... a.pdf?dl=0

The site is: https://buddhavacana.net/yogacarabhumi-sastra/ and the Samahita is labeled as "New" so it might got missed by some.

I'm actually in the process of study, it is a difficult document, very dense. It will takes months to extract all the juice. It would be extremely helpful if others would share their insights on the forum.
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by Assaji »

nirodh27 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:17 am I'm actually in the process of study, it is a difficult document, very dense. It will takes months to extract all the juice. It would be extremely helpful if others would share their insights on the forum.
For me, the passage in the Yogasthāna III of the Śrāvakabhūmi in the Yogācārabhūmi-śāstra (TU(3.2)62.1) with "pratibimba":
tatra śamathanimittaṃ dvividham ālambananimittaṃ nidānanimittaṃ ca / tatrālambananimittam, śamathapakṣyaṃ jñeyavastusabhāgaṃ pratibimbam ālambananimittaṃ / yenālambanena tac cittaṃ śamayati

‘Therein, the representation of serenity is of two types: the representation as the basis and the representation as the cause. Among these, the representation as the basis: The mental reflected image corresponding to the knowable object-base, belonging to the serenity category, is the representation as the basis. Due to that basis, the mind is pacified.’
helps to understand the early Vimuttimagga definition with the same word:
Q. What is the meaning of nimitta?

A. “Cause” (kāraṇa) is the meaning of nimitta. As the Buddha taught: “Monks, all vicious unskillful modes of conduct arise with a cause (nimitta)” [AN 2.78]. This is the meaning of “cause.”

It is also said: “The meaning of ‘[selective] recognition’ (sañjānana) is the meaning of nimitta.” As the Buddha said: “Through [training, one selective recognition arises and another selective] recognition (saññā) ceases.” [DN 9]. This is the meaning of “[selective] recognition.”

It is also said: “‘Reflected image’ (paṭibimba) is the meaning of nimitta. It is like seeing [in the mirror] the reflected image of one’s own face; a perceptual image.”

“Counterpart” (paṭibhāga) is not different in meaning.
In the words of Lambert Schmithausen, nimitta is “the mental image of the practice object’s appearance, picked up on in the imagination”, “das in die Vorstellung aufgenommene Bild dieser Erscheinungsform”.

(Schmithausen, Lambert, 1982. ‘Versenkungspraxis und erlösende Erfahrung in der Śrāvakabhūmi’, p. 63, n. 15a)

Proper understanding of this term, instead of the misleading "sign" rendering, helps to make sense of the instructions and implement them in practice. Without proper understanding, one may eventually slide into trance states without awareness, - and there are no sounds heard therein indeed.
auto
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by auto »

sounds = vaci/speech

people gossiping,
https://suttacentral.net/sn9.8/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “On the banks of the rivers and in the guest houses,
“Nadītīresu saṇṭhāne,
in meeting halls and highways,
sabhāsu rathiyāsu ca;
people come together and gossip:
Janā saṅgamma mantenti,
what’s going on between you and me?”
mañca tañca kimantaran”ti.
and from next verse we see this gossip is the sound/sadda
https://suttacentral.net/sn9.8/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “There are lots of annoying sounds
“Bahūhi saddā paccūhā,
that an austere ascetic must endure.
khamitabbā tapassinā;
But they mustn’t be dismayed by that,
Na tena maṅku hotabbaṁ,
for that’s not what defiles you.
na hi tena kilissati.
same sadda what is used in suttas what tell the sound is a thorn.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.72/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: Sound is a thorn to the first absorption.
paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako
Sutta tells that the sadda is not what defile(kilesa) you. There is other reason why the sound is a thorn. And based on these points we could derive what cessation or getting rid of defilements mean, surely it doesn't mean sound is not heard?
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