Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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robertk
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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Dmytro wrote:There's an excellent article by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu:

Silence Isn’t Mandatory
SENSORY PERCEPTION IN THE JHĀNAS

http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... datory.pdf
to me it's anti-Theravada and conveniently ignores the areas of the Tipitaka that disagree with his beliefs
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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robertk wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:21 am
Dmytro wrote:There's an excellent article by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu:

Silence Isn’t Mandatory
SENSORY PERCEPTION IN THE JHĀNAS

http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... datory.pdf
to me it's anti-Theravada and conveniently ignores the areas of the Tipitaka that disagree with his beliefs
What does 'theravada' mean to you Robert?
vada = sayings, thera = elders. Theravada = sayings of the Elders.
Who's elder, the suttas, or Visuddhimagga? The suttas are somewhere between 500-1000 years older than Vism.

That Thanissaro takes the 'elder' suttas as more authoratative over the 'young' Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma,
who is anti-Theravada here?
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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frank k wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:51 pm
robertk wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:21 am
Dmytro wrote:There's an excellent article by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu:

Silence Isn’t Mandatory
SENSORY PERCEPTION IN THE JHĀNAS

http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... datory.pdf
to me it's anti-Theravada and conveniently ignores the areas of the Tipitaka that disagree with his beliefs
What does 'theravada' mean to you Robert?
vada = sayings, thera = elders. Theravada = sayings of the Elders.
Who's elder, the suttas, or Visuddhimagga? The suttas are somewhere between 500-1000 years older than Vism.

That Thanissaro takes the 'elder' suttas as more authoratative over the 'young' Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma,
who is anti-Theravada here?
Even in the Tipitaka - from the Kathāvatthu:
0F39A16F-1255-4EDD-94F1-29ABB49E8AF6.png
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pitithefool
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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robertk wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:29 pm
I'll add some psychology perspective here

I think this is similar in semantic to an old debate in the field of cognitive psychology of whether or not there is such a thing as parallel processing.

The science shows that there is indeed a great amount of processing that can occur in the mind without our conscious input.

I believe you can "hear sounds" in the jhanas inasmuch as the brain receives the sensory input signal and processes it accordingly.

"Hearing a sound" can also mean "paying attention to it", "thinking about it" etc. and seems to cover a whole spectrum of sensory processing.

Back to the point about parallel processing, cognitive psych defines two types of processing: conscious, willed, controlled processing and mostly unconscious, automatic processing. The way I see it, controlled processing fits nicely with "vitakka-vicara" and automatic processing fits more with "vipassana". Vitakka-vicara is setting up the conditions for vipassana to occur on a sub-verbal or even sub-conscious level in the higher jhanas.

In this way it is not necessary for one to be aware of processing for it to be taking place, nor is it necessary for one to be unaware of processing for one to be unbothered by it.

Please, let me know if you have critiques or if I can clarify
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robertk
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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pitithefool wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:33 pm
robertk wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:29 pm
I'll add some psychology perspective here

I think this is similar in semantic to an old debate in the field of cognitive psychology of whether or not there is such a thing as parallel processing.

The science shows that there is indeed a great amount of processing that can occur in the mind without our conscious input.

I believe you can "hear sounds" in the jhanas inasmuch as the brain receives the sensory input signal and processes it accordingly.

"Hearing a sound" can also mean "paying attention to it", "thinking about it" etc. and seems to cover a whole spectrum of sensory processing.

Back to the point about parallel processing, cognitive psych defines two types of processing: conscious, willed, controlled processing and mostly unconscious, automatic processing. The way I see it, controlled processing fits nicely with "vitakka-vicara" and automatic processing fits more with "vipassana". Vitakka-vicara is setting up the conditions for vipassana to occur on a sub-verbal or even sub-conscious level in the higher jhanas.

In this way it is not necessary for one to be aware of processing for it to be taking place, nor is it necessary for one to be unaware of processing for one to be unbothered by it.

Please, let me know if you have critiques or if I can clarify
This idea of parallel processing has no basis in Dhamma. If taken up as a view it would compound the errors of those believing they hear in mundane jhana.
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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frank k wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:51 pm What does 'theravada' mean to you Robert?
vada = sayings, thera = elders. Theravada = sayings of the Elders.
Who's elder, the suttas, or Visuddhimagga? The suttas are somewhere between 500-1000 years older than Vism.
While "elder" in English can be applied as well to things (like texts) as to persons, "thera" in Pali cannot. Only certain persons (i.e., bhikkhus of more than ten rains and arahants) can be called theras.

The theras in "Theravāda" are the "ancient teachers" (purāṇācariyā) or simply the ancients (purāṇā). These comprise the 500 arahants at the First Council, the 700 at the Second, the 1,000 at the Third and the commentary-teachers (atthakathācariyas) who preserved the works that were later to be translated by Buddhaghosa, Dhammapāla, et al.

And so the criterion for assessing whether any given exposition of the Dhamma is "more Theravāda" or "less Theravāda" is conformity to or deviation from the doctrine (vāda) preserved and propounded by the aforementioned persons. The relative antiquity of the texts preserved by these persons is quite irrelevant to carrying out such an assessment.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by frank k »

robertk wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:29 pm ...
where is kattahvathu? I don't see it in KN.

And it reads like commentary, not part of canonical tipitaka.
Even if it was, you'd have a hard time proving it's earlier than all the suttas that I cited in the linked article that clearly explain the 5 sense faculties are not divorced from the mind in the 4 jhanas.
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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I don't see how that nitpicking on semantics helps your case. Whether I speak about the relative age of text or the elder monks, the idea is clear that later teachings contradict the earlier ones, and that the earlier ones, whether you attribute that to elder bhikkhus or the texts they compose, should have precedence in resolving contradictions.
Dhammanando wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:04 am
frank k wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:51 pm What does 'theravada' mean to you Robert?
vada = sayings, thera = elders. Theravada = sayings of the Elders.
Who's elder, the suttas, or Visuddhimagga? The suttas are somewhere between 500-1000 years older than Vism.
While "elder" in English can be applied as well to things (like texts) as to persons, "thera" in Pali cannot. Only certain persons (i.e., bhikkhus of more than ten rains and arahants) can be called theras.

The theras in "Theravāda" are the "ancient teachers" (purāṇācariyā) or simply the ancients (purāṇā). These comprise the 500 arahants at the First Council, the 700 at the Second, the 1,000 at the Third and the commentary-teachers (atthakathācariyas) who preserved the works that were later to be translated by Buddhaghosa, Dhammapāla, et al.

And so the criterion for assessing whether any given exposition of the Dhamma is "more Theravāda" or "less Theravāda" is conformity to or deviation from the doctrine (vāda) preserved and propounded by the aforementioned persons. The relative antiquity of the texts preserved by these persons is quite irrelevant to carrying out such an assessment.
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robertk
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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frank k wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:27 pm
robertk wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:29 pm ...
where is kattahvathu? I don't see it in KN.

And it reads like commentary, not part of canonical tipitaka.
Even if it was, you'd have a hard time proving it's earlier than all the suttas that I cited in the linked article that clearly explain the 5 sense faculties are not divorced from the mind in the 4 jhanas.
Kathāvatthu is one of the 7 books of the Abhidhamma, and is part of the canon, part of the Tipitaka. It has its own Commentary ( also translated by PTS). The page I gave did have a cleary defined paragraph from the Commentary.

I don't know what KN is.
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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pitithefool wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:33 pm
robertk wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:29 pm
I'll add some psychology perspective here

I think this is similar in semantic to an old debate in the field of cognitive psychology of whether or not there is such a thing as parallel processing.

The science shows that there is indeed a great amount of processing that can occur in the mind without our conscious input.

I believe you can "hear sounds" in the jhanas inasmuch as the brain receives the sensory input signal and processes it accordingly.

"Hearing a sound" can also mean "paying attention to it", "thinking about it" etc. and seems to cover a whole spectrum of sensory processing.

Back to the point about parallel processing, cognitive psych defines two types of processing: conscious, willed, controlled processing and mostly unconscious, automatic processing. The way I see it, controlled processing fits nicely with "vitakka-vicara" and automatic processing fits more with "vipassana". Vitakka-vicara is setting up the conditions for vipassana to occur on a sub-verbal or even sub-conscious level in the higher jhanas.

In this way it is not necessary for one to be aware of processing for it to be taking place, nor is it necessary for one to be unaware of processing for one to be unbothered by it.

Please, let me know if you have critiques or if I can clarify
not hearing sound means not exist... it doesn't mean sound exist but we dont hear... no

ear consciousness dont arise in first place... please enter jhana and see it urself... moggalana
heard sound in first jhana but buddha mentioned it is because it is not purified jhana factors something.. however its rare to hear sound in 1st jhana
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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confusedlayman wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:07 pm
ear consciousness dont arise in first place... please enter jhana and see it urself... moggalana
heard sound in first jhana but buddha mentioned it is because it is not purified jhana factors something.. however its rare to hear sound in 1st jhana
That's exactly what I'm saying. It's due to dispassion that ear consciousness does not arise. The ear becomes completely uninsteresting.
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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frank k wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:31 pm
[...] later teachings contradict the earlier ones, and that the earlier ones, whether you attribute that to elder bhikkhus or the texts they compose, should have precedence in resolving contradictions.
I agree wish this sentiment compeltely. If the later texts don't agree with older ones, the older ones (sutta pitaka) must be given precedence.
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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pitithefool wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:25 pm
frank k wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:31 pm
[...] later teachings contradict the earlier ones, and that the earlier ones, whether you attribute that to elder bhikkhus or the texts they compose, should have precedence in resolving contradictions.
I agree wish this sentiment compeltely. If the later texts don't agree with older ones, the older ones (sutta pitaka) must be given precedence.
They are, and that leads to an absorbed model. More to come.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by Dhammanando »

frank k wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:31 pm I don't see how that nitpicking on semantics helps your case.
I don't see how it's "nitpicking" to point out that you are applying to the word "thera" a meaning that it simply doesn't have, for your argument depends on the erroneous premise that it does have this meaning.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by pitithefool »

robertk wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:43 am
This idea of parallel processing has no basis in Dhamma. If taken up as a view it would compound the errors of those believing they hear in mundane jhana.
The Dhamma may not say anything about it, but it has a firm basis in reality and it explains why some meditators report not hearing sounds while some do.

Processing here doesn't necessarily imply contact. The brain figuring out how to breath is an example of this. We aren't aware of most of what the brain actually does unless we pay attention to it specifically.
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