Samatha and Anatta

[Twilight]

And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. AN 4.41

Good quote. You need to contemplate dependent on what does feeling arise, dependent on what fabrications arise etc.

Do you see this quote saying "just observe feeling. Just observe perception. Just observe fabrications etc. and wait and wait and wait for insight to arise while doing zero contemplation"

And, as I said, what one should do first is the 1step of the noble eighfold path. Witch is stream entry. Ending of effluents (enlightenment) should be aimed at only after attaining stream entry.

[CecilN]

Good quote. You need to contemplate dependent on what does feeling arise, dependent on what fabrications arise etc.

Do you see this quote saying "just observe feeling. Just observe perception. Just observe fabrications etc. and wait and wait and wait for insight to arise while doing zero contemplation"

In Pali, the word often translated as "contemplation" in the definition of Right Mindfulness is 'anupassi' , which means to 'see' or 'observe' rather than to 'think'. 'Thinking' about dhamma is called 'yoniso-manasikara', which is a preliminary practise to the 8 fold path (refer to the SN).

MN 43 states wisdom/insight & consciousness are co-joined. Insight does not arise from thinking but from direct knowing.

[Twilight]

which is a preliminary practise to the 8 fold path (refer to the SN)

Yes, in order to arrive at first step of the noble eightfold path: right view/ stream entry.

MN 43 states wisdom/insight & consciousness are co-joined. Wisdom does not arises from thinking but from direct knowing.

First of all I have no idea how can you use that sutta to make a case for such a thing. Second, good luck with this zen anti-contemplation attitude. Good luck understanding how the 5 aggregates work and interact with each other.

[CecilN]

Yes, in order to arrive at first step of the noble eightfold path: right view/ stream entry.

It sounds like you are trying to brainwash "your self" in believing "you" are a stream-enterer through studying suttas.

[Twilight]

Yes, in order to arrive at first step of the noble eightfold path: right view/ stream entry.

It sounds like you are trying to brainwash "your self" in believing "you" are a stream-enterer through studying suttas.

It sounds like you are trying to do it without doing any sutta study. All who ever achieved stream entry did it after hearing and contemplating a discourse of the Buddha. Can you show me one single sutta where somebody achieved it using another method ? I'm asking just for one single sutta of such a thing, not two.

[CecilN]

It sounds like you are trying to do it without doing any sutta study. All who ever achieved stream entry did it after hearing and contemplating a discourse of the Buddha. Can you show me one single sutta where somebody achieved it using another method ?

Stream-entry has three factors, one being total conviction (faith) in the path/dhamma. Total conviction can only occur when the liberation (fruit) of not-self or non-attachment has been tasted.

As for your view about stream-entry & the suttas, it is:

[Twilight]

It sounds like you are trying to do it without doing any sutta study. All who ever achieved stream entry did it after hearing and contemplating a discourse of the Buddha. Can you show me one single sutta where somebody achieved it using another method ?

Stream-entry has three factors, one being total conviction (faith) in the path/dhamma. Total conviction can only occur when the liberation (fruit) of not-self or non-attachment has been tasted.

As for your view about reading the suttas, it is:

Ok, then show me one single sutta about achieving stream entry through another method than hearing a discourse. One single one.

Also how do you explain that those who achieved stream entry in the suttas describe it as : "he taught me aggregates, sense bases, elements etc"

[CecilN]

Ok, then show me one single sutta about achieving stream entry through another method than hearing a discourse. One single one.

This is really off-topic because the topic is about samadhi & anatta.

However, to refute your point of view, in the 1st sutta sermon (SN 56.11), five listeners heard the sermon but only one attained stream-entry. This was probably because it was the mind of the one that was free from hindrances, i.e., had some samadhi.

MN 56 for example, stream-entry occurred only after Upali had samadhi:

Then the Blessed One discoursed to him a graduated sermon, that is to say, he spoke on the subjects of liberality, virtue, the heavens, on the evil consequences, the vanity and the depravity of sensual pleasures, and on the advantages of renunciation.

When the Blessed One perceived that the mind of Upāli, the householder, was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid, then he revealed to him that exalted doctrine of the Buddhas, viz. Suffering, its Cause, its Ceasing and the Path.

Just as a clean cloth, free from stain, would take the dye perfectly, even so, to Upāli, the householder, whilst seated in that place, there arose (in him) the spotless, stainless vision of Truth. He knew: Whatsoever has causally arisen must inevitably pass utterly away.’

Then Upāli, the householder, having thus, in the Dispensation of the Exalted One seen the Truth; attained to the Truth; comprehended the Truth, penetrated the Truth, overcome doubt; cast off uncertainty and gained full confidence without dependence on another

[Twilight]

How can you possibly use that sutta to make your point ????? I mean this is from your quote:

Then the Blessed One discoursed to him a graduated sermon, that is to say, he spoke on the subjects of liberality, virtue, the heavens, on the evil consequences, the vanity and the depravity of sensual pleasures, and on the advantages of renunciation.

When the Blessed One perceived that the mind of Upāli, the householder, was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid, then he revealed to him that exalted doctrine of the Buddhas, viz. Suffering, its Cause, its Ceasing and the Path.

Just as a clean cloth, free from stain, would take the dye perfectly, even so, to Upāli, the householder, whilst seated in that place, there arose (in him) the spotless, stainless vision of Truth. He knew: Whatsoever has causally arisen must inevitably pass utterly away.’

He first spoke about heavens and etc. witch of course can not make one become a stream enterer. Then he revealed to him the subtle doctrine, the fundamental doctrine that is today preserved in the SN volume of the Pali Canon. All those suttas that end in "after hearing this discourse, 20 bhikkhus attained stream entry" are there.

I have asked you for a sutta where someone achieves stream entry through another method than hearing a discourse on the fundamental doctrine. And you provide me a sutta where one achieves stream entry precisely by hearing a discourse on the fundamental doctrine.

This was probably because it was the mind of the one that was free from hindrances, i.e., had some samadhi.

This is because he was smarter or payed proper attention. "There are some who achieve stream entry through just hearing a discourse in brief, some that require to hear the teaching in detail. Some that require hearing the teaching in detail and further contemplation about it. etc. "

[CecilN]

I have asked you for a sutta where someone achieves stream entry through another method than hearing a discourse on the fundamental doctrine. And you provide me a sutta where one achieves stream entry precisely by hearing a discourse on the fundamental doctrine.

No. I provided a discourse that shows having samadhi/samatha is a prerequisite to hearing the teachings clearly to result in stream-entry:

When the Blessed One perceived that the mind of Upāli, the householder, was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid, .... MN 56

I provided SN 56.11, that shows hearing the teachings alone is not sufficient for stream-entry.

[Twilight]

When the Blessed One perceived that the mind of Upāli, the householder, was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid, .... MN 56

When hearing a complicated teaching such as the doctrine of dependent origination or a teaching on how a car engine works, the mind has to be in a good state to understand it. You can't do it drunk or after having a meal or while been sleepy etc. And it also depends on how smart the person is.

When you were in school, did you require hours of samadhi to understand what was been taught over there ? Is that what you did to understand complicated material, or did you use hours of contemplation like all us normal people ?

[CecilN]

When hearing a complicated teaching such as the doctrine of dependent origination or a teaching on how a car engine works, the mind has to be in a good state to understand it. You can't do it drunk or after having a meal or while been sleepy etc.

Yes. The mind must have some samadhi & samatha.

As for the doctrine of dependent origination, please explain how thinking it is about past, present & future lives will lead to the realisation of anatta & sunnata? Thanks

[Twilight]

As for the doctrine of dependent origination, please explain how thinking it is about past, present & future lives will lead to the realisation of anatta & sunnata? Thanks

That will of course lead to zero realization of no self existing. The way to understand it is through understanding how the 5 aggregates work and interact with each other. Witch require more than 1 single sutta out of 2000pag of SN taken out of context by Buddhadasa to make a case that Buddha never taught rebirth.

[CecilN]

That will of course lead to zero realization of no self existing. The way to understand it is through understanding how the 5 aggregates work and interact with each other. Witch require more than 1 single sutta out of 2000pag of SN taken out of context by Buddhadasa to make a case that Buddha never taught rebirth.

This reply is insufficient. The Buddha did not debate like this.

[pyluyten]

Ok, then show me one single sutta about achieving stream entry through another method than hearing a discourse. One single one.

Buddha's themselves do.