extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 3549
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Post by confusedlayman »

As the title says, what kind of state of meditation is that? any sutta reference? only bliss feeling is observed and body awareness is completly lost. first vauge bliss and body feeling (little thinking like intension), then bliss and body feeling (no thinking), then bliss alone with no body feeling (body invisible from perception but not in real 3d world), its the most amazing pleasure witnessed never seen anything but not addicting even 1%. again when want to return back, the body comes in to perception and bliss fades gradually and concentration is very fast i.e it moves front and back with 0% laziness.

what state name is this? I am following different method to get to this state but what is the name? thanks for reference pls reference me only sutta that can web link and attach URL.

-confusedlayman
dont think
SarathW
Posts: 14715
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Post by SarathW »

This would correspond to the luminous level of concentration described in the standard simile for the fourth jhana: "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness." From this state it is possible to develop the discernment that not only cuts away existing defilements but also uproots any potential for them to ever arise again. Only in the stages of Awakening that follow on those acts of discernment would "consciousness without feature" be realized.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 3549
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Post by confusedlayman »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:08 am This would correspond to the luminous level of concentration described in the standard simile for the fourth jhana: "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness." From this state it is possible to develop the discernment that not only cuts away existing defilements but also uproots any potential for them to ever arise again. Only in the stages of Awakening that follow on those acts of discernment would "consciousness without feature" be realized.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Hi, But i experience intense (non human) bliss feeling but in your comment it says neither pleasure nor pain. in this experience i experience 100% pleasure feeling and 0% pain as no physical body awareness and no angry emotions.
dont think
SarathW
Posts: 14715
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Post by SarathW »

Here it is about neutral feelings.
Perhaps you should investigate the four Jhana formula to make an assessment of yourself.
It is only Buddha and you can determine this.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
samsarictravelling
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:17 am
Contact:

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Post by samsarictravelling »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:45 am As the title says, what kind of state of meditation is that? any sutta reference? only bliss feeling is observed and body awareness is completly lost. first vauge bliss and body feeling (little thinking like intension), then bliss and body feeling (no thinking), then bliss alone with no body feeling (body invisible from perception but not in real 3d world), its the most amazing pleasure witnessed never seen anything but not addicting even 1%. again when want to return back, the body comes in to perception and bliss fades gradually and concentration is very fast i.e it moves front and back with 0% laziness.

what state name is this? I am following different method to get to this state but what is the name? thanks for reference pls reference me only sutta that can web link and attach URL.

-confusedlayman
Hi, But i experience intense (non human) bliss feeling but in your comment it says neither pleasure nor pain. in this experience i experience 100% pleasure feeling and 0% pain as no physical body awareness and no angry emotions.
Maybe it's one of the first three jhanas (not the fourth jhana), or a moving through the 1st to the 2nd (to the 3rd)? I wouldn't know. I only attained once in my life a meditative state of peace without thought (possibly took me hours to get to it, can't remember). Only once. And that was when I was 19 or 20 years old. You're lucky, I guess!!! Here are the descriptions of the three jhanas:

Jhana is a meditative state of profound stillness and concentration in which the mind becomes fully immersed and absorbed in the chosen object of attention. It is the cornerstone in the development of Right Concentration.

The definition (with similes)
[FIRST JHANA]
"There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal...

[SECOND JHANA]
"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.

"Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from east, west, north, or south, and with the skies periodically supplying abundant showers, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure...

[THIRD JHANA]
"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.

"Just as in a blue-, white-, or red-lotus pond, there may be some of the blue, white, or red lotuses which, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those blue, white, or red lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture...

Source: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... jhana.html

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please excuse me if I do not reply to any reply.

From,
samsarictravelling

EDIT:

I. The Immaterial World (arupa-loka)

The inhabitants of these realms are possessed entirely of mind. Having no physical body, they are unable to hear Dhamma teachings.

Source: The Thirty-one Planes of Existence. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHAPTER X
THE IMMATERIAL STATES
(Áruppa-niddesa)
[(1) THE BASE CONSISTING OF BOUNDLESS SPACE]

...

6. When he has seen the danger in that [fine-material fourth jhána] jhána in
this way and has ended his attachment to it, he gives his attention to the base
consisting of boundless space as peaceful.

Source: The Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga), Chapter 10. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, 'Having no physical body' of my first selection, and 'peaceful' in my second selection. And elsewhere at this Dhamma Wheel message board you were talking about space kasina meditation ( viewtopic.php?f=22&t=34621 ). So read the Chapter X (Chapter 10) of Path of Purification and see if it helps you, as well as if it answers your question.

Please excuse me if I do not reply to any reply.

From,
samsarictravelling
pyluyten
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:08 am

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Post by pyluyten »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:45 am then bliss and body feeling (no thinking)
Jhana 1, bliss "born from withdrawal". Does not match imo. Then Jhana 2, "rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness". Better, no? Some modern scholars consider Jhana 2 is where thought stops. In Visudhimagga there is no thought even in Jhana 1 -- but then how could bliss not be borned from awareness? to stop thoughts, awareness has to be already extremly high imo. This is the famous "soft jhana versus hard jhana" debate you may find quite documented here.

Different books have quite different opinions on Jhana 3

Which techniques did you use? even technique you may believe as different tradition. Thanks for sharing
budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Post by budo »

I think you're confusing body tranquility with "no body awareness".

The body must first be tranquilized or calmed for piti and sukha to arise, then the more piti and sukha grow, the more tranquil the body becomes.

In my experience, full body awareness prevents body tranquillity, whereas one pointedness speeds up body tranquility.
User avatar
Antaradhana
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:56 pm
Location: Saratov, Russia

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Post by Antaradhana »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:25 amHi, But i experience intense (non human) bliss feeling but in your comment it says neither pleasure nor pain. in this experience i experience 100% pleasure feeling and 0% pain as no physical body awareness and no angry emotions.
Delight and bliss, one way or another, is accompanied by bodily reactions. In human bodies, it works through the reactions of neurotransmitters. Observe the sensations, are these purely mental phenomena, without any pleasant bodily sensations?
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
samsarictravelling
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:17 am
Contact:

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Post by samsarictravelling »

"Thus the 1st absorption is free from 5 things (i.e. the hindrances, nīvarana), and 5 things are present (i.e. the factors of absorption; jhānanga). Whenever the monk enters the 1st absorption, there have vanished sensuous desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and scruples, doubts; and there are present: thought-conception (vitakka), discursive thinking (vicāra) rapture (pīti), joy (sukha), and concentration (samādhi). In the 2nd absorption there are present: rapture, joy and concentration; in the 3rd: joy and concentration; in the 4th: equanimity (upekkhā) and concentration" (Vis.M. IV).

The 4 absorptions of the immaterial sphere (s. above 5-8) still belong, properly speaking, to the 4th absorption as they possess the same two constituents. The 4th fine-material absorption is also the base or starting point (pādaka-jhāna, q.v.) for the attaining of the higher spiritual powers (abhiññā).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

My hopefully clearing up (hopefully not confusing, not making an error in) the meaning of the above copy & paste. Sometimes using different English words (for example, 'sensuality' instead of 'sense desires'), though I mean to have the same meaning:

The 1st jhana is free of the five hindrances (sensuality, ill-will, sloth and torpor, flurry and worry, doubt).

---------------------

The 1st jhana has these five factors: vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha, samadhi
The 2nd jhana has these three factors, because having lost two factors of the five found in the 1st jhana: piti, sukha, samadhi
The 3rd jhana has these two factors, having lost another factor: sukha, samadhi
The 4th jhana has these two factors: uppekkha, samadhi.

---------------------

The four formless jhanas (Infinite Space, Infinite Consciousness, Nothingness, Neither-perception-nor-non-perception) after the four jhanas just described, possess the same two factors of the 4th jhana: uppekkha, samadhi

---------------------

The 4th jhana is also the base or starting point for the attaining of the higher spiritual powers (abhiññā). (This last information does not really fit in with the subject of just jhanic bliss, but I found it interesting so I included in this post.)

Source of the copy & paste: 'jhāna' entry in Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, by NYANATILOKA at palikanon.com website. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/jhaana.htm

Please excuse me if I do not reply to any repliy to this post.

from,
samsarictravelling
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 3549
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Post by confusedlayman »

Antaradhana wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:49 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:25 amHi, But i experience intense (non human) bliss feeling but in your comment it says neither pleasure nor pain. in this experience i experience 100% pleasure feeling and 0% pain as no physical body awareness and no angry emotions.
Delight and bliss, one way or another, is accompanied by bodily reactions. In human bodies, it works through the reactions of neurotransmitters. Observe the sensations, are these purely mental phenomena, without any pleasant bodily sensations?
I did metta to everyone. from myself to brahma world(even thought i duno whr it is lol)

The things when you do from yourself, friends, strangers....enimy....hell....brahma world.... you keep metta continously in your heart so it becomes intense. when I come out of metta, there metta feeling still tingles in center of chest during normal activites following metta.

When I conciously enter sleep paralysis, when the body undergo paralysis, I focus on metta cold feeling in heart so it explodes and become bliss feeling which is different from metta itself.

Sometimes there is thinking and sometimes there is not but when there is not thinking, the awareness focus on bliss feeling alone leading to disappearence of body awareness. It feels like bliss is everywhere and we are bliss and we lost the physical body. (what an amazing experience to have existance without body. this body is shit, heavy, burden) but in reality body is in bed paralysed. So its the play of awareness/perception but it does the job. so the concentration is super fast moves front and back and this type of concentration not available in normal state i dono y. So answering your question, I feel absence of body but bliss feeling of feeling alone. when u feel the feeling alone with no body how light u feel. If you want i can give full method so u try and see and let me know the experience.

thanks.
dont think
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 3549
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Post by confusedlayman »

budo wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:07 am I think you're confusing body tranquility with "no body awareness".

The body must first be tranquilized or calmed for piti and sukha to arise, then the more piti and sukha grow, the more tranquil the body becomes.

In my experience, full body awareness prevents body tranquillity, whereas one pointedness speeds up body tranquility.
suppose if u feel extreme bliss u feel along with body (lets assume its 80 kgs).
Now how u feel bliss minus 80 kgs? how u feel bliss without body? you become unlimited bliss and bliss is not having physical body awareness? i cant say by words but i can say how i went here so u can try for yourself when u have free time.
dont think
sunnat
Posts: 601
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Post by sunnat »

Try to remamber always that these and any other amazing feelings or experiences along the road to nibbana are just as anicca as any other composed phenomenon. Subject to decomposition. The moment they become something one chases or wants, looks for, needs, in any way craves, one is walking away from the goal. Just observe equanimously and move on.
User avatar
Nicolas
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Post by Nicolas »

It sounds like 1st jhana :thumbsup:
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8980
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:45 amAs the title says, what kind of state of meditation is that?
While it is unlikely the mind reached "jhana" (since the mind would know jhana due to sitting in such a state for many hours), according to Ajahn Brahm, in "jhana", there is no body awareness. In other words, nothing extraordinary is going on here. While probably not jhana, sometimes consciousness can rise up in the brain/head, get expanded & blissful and not feel the body. Regards
Nicolas wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:03 amIt sounds like 1st jhana
Unlikely. If it was 1st jhana, there would be not "doubt" about it because the signs or factors of the 1st jhana are likely to be exceptionally clear & obvious.
samsarictravelling wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:03 am The definition (with similes)
[FIRST JHANA]
"There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal...
There may be a simile above but its just a translation. The word "kaya", in certain contexts, does not mean "physical body".
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:06 amI did metta to everyone. from myself to brahma world(even thought i duno whr it is lol :) )

The things when you do from yourself, friends, strangers....enimy....hell....brahma world.... you keep metta continously in your heart so it becomes intense. when I come out of metta, there metta feeling still tingles in center of chest during normal activites following metta.

When I conciously enter sleep paralysis, when the body undergo paralysis, I focus on metta cold feeling in heart so it explodes and become bliss feeling which is different from metta itself.
I think it is natural & as I suspected you didn't feel the body because your mind was thinking. You were thinking blissful thoughts therefore experienced a blissful mind. To me, what you practised seems to be beneficial and, most importantly, it proves how metta brings happiness.

Best wishes. Keep up the good practice. :smile: :heart:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 3549
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:11 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:45 amAs the title says, what kind of state of meditation is that?
While it is unlikely the mind reached "jhana" (since the mind would know jhana due to sitting in such a state for many hours), according to Ajahn Brahm, in "jhana", there is no body awareness. In other words, nothing extraordinary is going on here. While probably not jhana, sometimes consciousness can rise up in the brain/head, get expanded & blissful and not feel the body. Regards
Nicolas wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:03 amIt sounds like 1st jhana
Unlikely. If it was 1st jhana, there would be not "doubt" about it because the signs or factors of the 1st jhana are likely to be exceptionally clear & obvious.
samsarictravelling wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:03 am The definition (with similes)
[FIRST JHANA]
"There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal...
There may be a simile above but its just a translation. The word "kaya", in certain contexts, does not mean "physical body".
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:06 amI did metta to everyone. from myself to brahma world(even thought i duno whr it is lol :) )

The things when you do from yourself, friends, strangers....enimy....hell....brahma world.... you keep metta continously in your heart so it becomes intense. when I come out of metta, there metta feeling still tingles in center of chest during normal activites following metta.

When I conciously enter sleep paralysis, when the body undergo paralysis, I focus on metta cold feeling in heart so it explodes and become bliss feeling which is different from metta itself.
I think it is natural & as I suspected you didn't feel the body because your mind was thinking. You were thinking blissful thoughts therefore experienced a blissful mind. To me, what you practised seems to be beneficial and, most importantly, it proves how metta brings happiness.

Best wishes. Keep up the good practice. :smile: :heart:
thanks I am going to do metta so often that i can radiate love even during very bad times. its very hard to condition the mind but have to do it.
dont think
Post Reply