Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

auto you were blocked a while ago. this is not a reply, just a reminder.
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6491
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Jhana

Post by Dhammanando »

Just a reminder of the thread's topic:

Pulsar wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:12 am Jhana as a tool of ekayana, some sweep jhana aside as too difficult, and use negative terms such as 'jhana clingers', for those who practice this path of ekayana.
But the 4 rupa jhanas, when rightly practiced, constitute the 8th factor of noble Path. If one rejects these, by calling these special attainments, is it not a rejection of the noble Path?
I find it more difficult to maintain right speech at all times, as indicated in MN 117, I falter more there, than with my practice of jhana. How about yours?
Which attainment do you find easier? We all know that if we abstain from either of these, we are also not following the Noble Path. I like to hear from those that do not reject MN 117, because for me this is the one sutta that expounds the Noble Path to its end, defining each factor with great clarity, starting from right view, ending with right knowledge and right liberation. Again what is easier for you? Right speech or right concentration?
:candle:
Anyone wishing to discuss jhāna in relation to Hindu methods are invited to start a new thread in Connections to other Paths.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Rev Dhammanando wrote
Anyone wishing to discuss jhāna in relation to Hindu methods are invited to start a new thread in Connections to other Paths.
Thank you for reposting the OP, and reminding the readers the intention of this thread.
With love :candle:
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

"One of right view, one of right view"
dealing with jhana the right way, with "The right view" Four budddhist jhanas are not a mode that manifests in a retreat if one does not generally lead a life of sila, samadhi, panna. 
Jhana does not manifest explosively. 
Overzealous poets might describe it as an explosion of sorts, and the naive people may take these literally, and spread fake stories on the internet, regarding the 8-fold path. 
  • Path is to be savored in small sips, thoughtfully, mindfully.
I recall reading
  • "she/he who applies herself/himself to that to which she/he should apply self, her/he alone do i call a Learner"
A poet might say Jhana does away with the samsaric ignorance in explosive ways, but to tell the real truth, the non-poetic truth, these are mere mini explosions, hardly noticeable at the moment, but noticed over a period of time,
  • like the wearing away of the Adze handle. SN 22.101.
There are teachings of this nature in the Sutta pitaka. Metaphors like these found in Adze handle or those used for describing four buddhist jhanas.
These are clear as the light of day. Why do we need interpreters to translate for us what the Buddha taught?
  • To one who leads a life of sila, samadhi and panna, Buddha of the canon shines through day and night.
For those who do not get the Buddha perhaps it helps to spend a while on an Auspicious Night,  MN 133.
Time spent with Maha Kaccana is time well spent.
With love  :candle:
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:04 pm
Suppose there was a sea-faring ship bound together with ropes.
For six months they deteriorated in the water. Then in the cold season it was hauled up on dry land,
where the ropes were weathered by wind and sun.
When the clouds soaked it with rain, the ropes would readily collapse and rot away.
In the same way, when a mendicant is committed to development their fetters readily collapse and rot away.”
The 'ship' is a beautiful metaphor on wearing away of the fetters that bind one to the sensual world.
One engaged in 4th jhana is far away from the sensory world.
samadhi is precursor, entrance.. for sabbe dhamma,
https://suttacentral.net/an10.58/en/sujato wrote: Immersion is their chief samādhippamukhā sabbe dhammā
mukha
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/m/mukha/ wrote:Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
mukha:[nt.] mouth; face; entrance; opening; front.(adj.),foremost.
dhamma is within the all(sense organs and their objects) albeit the mind and its object.
Pulsar wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:27 pm We are stuck at the bottom of the mountain, a long way to go
if you think there is something beyond the all you'll become frustrated,
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.23/en/sujato wrote:Mendicants, suppose someone was to say: ‘I’ll reject this all and describe another all.’ They’d have no grounds for that, they’d be stumped by questions, and, in addition, they’d get frustrated. Why is that? Because they’re out of their element.”
Maybe you want clearly tell what you mean by 4th jhana not being sensory? I get where i was wrong, that it is not 5 senses - but it still is within the all. So i found a mistake on my own and with the help of this community. What i previously wrote could have been sounded painful due not having discernment yet on this important matter.
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

"One of right view, one of right view"
Sutta on Right view presents Right view in a variety of ways.
Firstly Right view is spoken of as having a firm understanding of "The good the bad and the ugly" or
"The wholesome and unwholesome"
knowing that Kamma has repercussions, which directs us towards the importance of mindfulness. 
The mindful person does not generate kamma. SN 12.61 "Monkey simile" tells us
"mind is dependent on an object".
It does not say that the untrained mind is as restless as a monkey. A point to ponder.
  • Purpose  of meditation is to do away with this reliance on an object.
How do we stop the mind from arising? How do we release the mind from its dependence on an object?
  • Ceto Vimutti? 
No greed is the root of goodness. No  cruelty is the root of goodness. No ignorance is the root of goodness, MN 19 tells us.
Loving kindness, comes to our aid here, practised first as a householder (does not mean layman) then practised as a renunciate, MN 137. Exposition of the Sixfold Base

Metta sutta begins with
Skilled in good, wishing to attain a state of calm,
so should one behave, able, upright, perfectly upright,
open-minded, gentle, free from pride.
Sutta ends with, if you act according to the instructions of the sutta "you will not be subject to birth"
Sutta MN 9 writes
'When a person abandons all potential trends of greed and worry, removes the potential trend of disgust and worry & eradicates the potential  of "I am" perception, he abandons ignorance'
"He gives birth to lucidity and ceases the suffering of life. He entirely abandons the underlying tendency"
These are references to 4th jhana. Every factor of Right view ends with these phrases, emphasizing the radical need for Removal of underlying tendency (or the kammic consciousness). The last two steps of the 8-fold path target the abolishing of underlying tendency. 

"Is jhana necessary for liberation?" If it is not, why does Sutta on Right View insist sixteen times the necessity of abolishing underlying tendency.
Right View encompasses the entire path. Path has to be negotiated gently, with an attitude of loving kindness, to oneself the most, understanding the treacherousness of the uphill climb, or the challenges of going against the stream.
SN 35.244 writes
Suppose a man would enter a thorny forest,
There would be thorns in front of him, thorns behind him, thorns to his left etc.
He would go forward mindfully, he would go back mindfully,
thinking "May no thorns prick me!"

So too bhikkhus, whatever in the world has a pleasing and agreeable nature
is called a thorn in the Noble One's discipline.
Having understood this thus as 'a thorn'
one should understand restraint and non restraint.
Life is thorny.
What is it like to be in the 4th establishment of mindfulness or the 4th buddhist jhana?
There are many ways of describing these,
one way would be: Sensual passion does not lie latent within him/her, in regard to sensual pleasures.
It is a mode of conduct and manner of dwelling in such a way that as s/he conducts herself thus and as s/he dwells thus, unwholesome states and displeasure do not flow upon her. 
With love  :candle:
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

There is the emptiness of the enjoyer,
emptiness of the enjoyed, 
Emptiness of the body
I read in a buddhist scripture, it is poetry like the gently rising sun, a thought, and I racked my brain, where did I read this? in a more prosaic form
Empty village/vipers/murderers come to my mind SN 35. 238. Asivisisopamasutta. It brings in a string of powerful similes, to teach of the startling dangers of existence,
with means of escape strung at the end. A modified excerpt of its similes.
The teacher says
"I have made up this simile, bhikkhus, in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning,
The four vipers of fierce heat and deadly venom:
This is the designation for the 4 great elements, earth, water, heat and air.
Now this can be interpreted in two ways. It can mean the physical body made up of 4 elements.
Body will have issues whenever any of the elements act up. i.e. if air is exhausted, body dies,
air can be a poisonous snake killing us, by its lack or excess. 
Or it can be viewed in the sense of DO, as the rupa that arises in the mind when the mind is not engaged in mindful states. (4th establishment of mindfulness or 4th Jhana)
When craving gains a footing, a form appears due to craving and begins the nama-rupa cycling.

The five murderous enemies:
This is a designation for the five aggregates subject to clinging.
The sixth murderer: the intimate companion with a drawn sword.
This is a designation for Delight and Lust.
Delight and lust are compared to a murderer.
The empty village:
This is a designation for the six internal sense bases. If a wise person examines them by way of eye etc,  they appear to be void, hollow, empty.
Village attacking dacoits:
This is a designation for the six external sense bases, the seen, heard, sensed, cognized. These six bases are attacked by the agreeable and disagreeable.
The great Expanse of water:
is a designation for the four floods,
1.The flood of sensuality;
2.The flood of existence;
3.The flood of views;
4.The flood of ignorance.
The Near Shore:
which is dangerous and fearful: designation for Identity.
The Further shore:
safe and free is a designation for nibbana.
The Raft:
8-fold path/ten-fold path

Making efforts with Hands and feet:
this is a designation for the arousing of energy
Crossed Over:
designates the Arahant.
A sutta that comes to mind when i contemplate on the emptiness of life.
With love on the 1st of April in the year '21 :candle:
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

The sutta talks about Four kinds of persons: 
The 1st gains internal serenity of mind but not higher wisdom into phenomena.
2nd gains higher wisdom into phenomena but not internal serenity.
3rd Gains both; 4th Gains neither.
Examining the sutta: What is the higher wisdom required, how should it be gained?
Sutta writes:
  • Conditioned phenomena should be seen in such a way,
    explored in such a way, discerned by insight in such a way, then some time later,
    s/he gains both internal serenity of mind and higher wisdom of insight into
    phenomena/experience of dhammas.
This would be
explorations into "Not-self" "absence of stability" and "absence of peace".
In our busy entangled lives, these are often spoken of rapidly at the speed of a bullet train,
and then got off the bullet train, and then got on to the next topic. It is all talk, but insight requires practice of Mindfulness in a dependently originated way. So just talking is not Dhamma.
That would belong to the category of mental proliferation which is Adhamma.
True Dhamma is to explore these events with each breath, after the talk. 
  • When using breath how do events of "Not-self" unravel?
Sutta inquiries
"How should conditioned phenomena be discerned by insight?"
Instead of mouthing "Anicca, dukkha, Anatta" and stepping over another hurdle,
shouldn't we unravel the steps of dependent origination? Some bail out, because some think DO has nothing to do with meditation.
The process of inquiry or
Dhamma Vicaya
is the essential next step to Mindfulness which is the
first step in the seven Bojjhangas,
or Awakening factors.
Disputing existence vs non-existence, self vs not self are pointless. One who is familiar with SN 12.15 knows that Buddha left these behind. Summarizing that sutta
"Problem with the world is either they are hung up on self or not self"
One who wants to leave suffering behind examines cryptic statements like Iddhipada etc, what makes up Iddhipada?
1. Determination or will; 2. Viriya (endlessly exerted effort); 3. Samadhi (buddhist jhanas); 4. Inquiry. What was Buddha reflecting on the wee hours of morning, of a full moon of May?.
What is the Internal Serenity referred to in the Second Factor of the sutta?
It is the steadying, composing, unifying, and concentrating by way of first jhana,
so too in the second, so too in the third, so too in the 4th. When Samadhi is perfected and form disappears,
  • it is the formlessness according to SammaSambuddha,
but not according Ramaputta and company, who are given endless credit for teaching Buddha something that he did not have to learn.  
For the Buddha this stage was merely a misstep on the way, similar to the missteps of extreme asceticism.
In the formlessness of 4th jhana,
  • manifoldness, proliferation, abhisankharoti, chopping of thought comes to a resounding stop.
If the form does not appear, can the naming be?
When name and form arise not,
  • where is the lodging for worldly consciousness?
When the self cannot find a footing, there is the subtle exit of the notion of self.
  • This is the magic of formlessness of 4th buddhist jhana.
How could the prevailing meditations before Buddha's awakening have devised a meaningful formless meditation that got rid of the notion of self? If they did that, what would join Brahma? A veritable suicide for the notion of Brahma, and union with Brahma.
With love :candle:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN4_94.html
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Once there was a fine person called Vinasp on DW, some called him Vincent, I mistakenly called him Visigoth on a comment in the study group. My apologies to Visigoth.
But there is no mistaking about some of the comments Vinasp made. He never mentioned 4 buddhist jhanas. Unlike some folks who endlessly speculate about buddhist jhana, and get it wrong, Vinasp who never speculated about such, appeared to have glimpsed 4th buddhist jhana. 
One time there was a question on why there is no sutta that explains awakening? It is because they cannot explain what awakening actually is, Vinasp wrote. Below is his
detailed answer.
Why can they not explain this? Because the worldling has a completely different understanding of awakening to that of a noble disciple.
  • This is the Nibbana / Parinibbana problem.
For a worldling the awakened Arahant has not yet escaped samsara, that will be when he dies.
But the noble disciple knows that samsara ends with awakening.

The noble disciple understands that samsara is the ongoing process of constructing the aggregates, so when that process ends so does samsara.

But the worldling, who takes the form aggregate as being actual form, has to project its cessation into the future.
How then, can they explain exactly what ceases at awakening? wrote Vinasp, also he said people come up with cumbersome answers that one cannot understand easily.
All aggregates disappear on awakening, i agree, but to the puthujjana who lives trapped within the sense bases, this is an impossibility. S/he is locked within dependent origination. Thus we have these endless debates on Dhamma chat groups, that go around in circles. 
One example I can think of: there was a post that asked this question...
What is your understanding of phassa ( contact ), and what do you think the cessation of phassa entails, practically speaking? 

"The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling..."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html 
The one who understood awakening, knows there is no objectification for an Arahant.
  • The subject "I" has vanished, how then can there be an object?
Vinasp seems to have solved this hard problem. Maybe he engaged in 4th Jhana, without knowing what to call his meditation. Some ask stuff like "without eye contact how can the Arahant see?" Arahant has not lost sentience, all the biochemical mechanisms of the body are intact.
Awakening does not interfere with these.
Some speak of the Arahant as if s/he is trapped within the sense bases. But s/he is not, Suttas say Arahant has gone beyond the sense bases.
If so, what contact can there be for him/her, in a soteriological sense in a Dependently originated
manner? Many fail to realize that in DO the contact is made only with a form projected in the mind. Arahant is not engaged in nama-rupa formation, what contact can there be if there is no form to contact? 
I was inspired to write this comment by a conversation happening elsewhere on DW, where the OP claimed he understood Dependent Origination, but some others did not.
My feeling was that he did not understand DO like our Dear Vinasp did.
I am forever inspired by some of the things that vinasp said on DW. That i can meet him on a later date like this i am thankful to DNS and others who make such insightful interactions possible,
that in our awkward thinking, we are not alone in this world.
With love :candle:
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:35 pm All aggregates disappear on awakening, i agree, but to the puthujjana who lives trapped within the sense bases, this is an impossibility. S/he is locked within dependent origination. Thus we have these endless debates on Dhamma chat groups, that go around in circles.
One example I can think of: there was a post that asked this question...
Considering the form aggregate includes any object of the 6 senses, and seeing as how the Buddha and Arahants still walk around talking and eating, this does not seem likely. The aggregates still exist and function after awakening. They only cease without remainder at the end of life. Namarupa still functions and so there is still contact, given there is attention to the senses.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Dearest Ceisiwr: You wrote
The aggregates still exist and function after awakening.
They only cease without remainder at the end of life.
Namarupa still functions and so there is still contact, given there is attention to the senses.
OK, let us see whether we are on the same page, what is your definition of the word
aggregate?
Once a Buddha or Arahant awakens (Nibbanize), do they have to wait until the end of life to
end suffering? What does Buddha's awakening mean to you?
What do you mean by "functioning of Namarupa?" An earthworm has a mentality and a
materiality i.e. namarupa, but Buddha did not teach Dependent Origination to
earthworms.
With love :candle:
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Sariputta is very much on my mind. It is a beautiful morning, very peaceful, and I remembered the following from the Vinaya Pitaka.
The Lord saw Sariputta and Moggallana coming in the distance;  
seeing them, he addressed the monks saying,
  • When in the deep sphere of knowledge, they had attained the matchless freedom in which there is destruction of attachments,
then the teacher explained about them in the Bamboo grove.
Monks, these two friends, Kolita and Upatissa are coming. This pair of disciples will be my chief, my eminnet pair.
Now an eminent scholar calls the first phrase
  • an  extraordinary grammatical construction.
Who could do that but the Buddha?
Buddha refers to a
  •  "A matchless freedom".
Then he refers to
  • "destruction of attachments"
in relation to two friends.
To me it implies that they had destroyed their attachments.
If so, who could they be but Arahants?
by the time they met the Buddha. Buddha himself says so?. 
Principle of dependent origination, is all they had been privy to.
Now lets us leave the Vinaya Pitaka behind and visit the Sutta Pitaka.
What does it say about the enlightenment of Sariputta?
It presents us with MN 111, which clearly appears to be a work of an Abhidhammika, trying hard to push Arupa
samapatthis down the reader's throat.
Does anyone else think Sariputta became an Arahant twice?
We also have another curious sutta in the canon. It is called
To Dighanaka
MN 74,
sorry i forgot the 'h'. there is an 'h' before the last letter a.
Sutta writes while Buddha was addressing Dighanaka, Sariputta was standing behind the Blessed One, fanning him and listening in on the conversation. 
Sariputta's mind was liberated from the taints, during that listening.
Sariputta was liberated thrice??? Let us investigate what is going on.
MN 111 is missing from the Agama version of Middle length. 
Clearly, MN 111 was born after sectarianism. But what about MN 74? we do find a parallel there, but the location of the sutta is all over the map.
The discourse parallels are SĀ 969 at T II 249a-250a and SĀ2 203 at T II 449a-b. While MN 74 takes place at Mount Vulture Peak near Rājagaha, SĀ 969 and SĀ2 203 have the Squirrel’s Feeding Ground near the same Rājagaha as their location.
The Pali version takes place on Boar's cave on the mountain Vulture Peak. See how interesting things get when one tries to find out the truth in these instances? 
I don't care about the details really.
I am convinced Buddha is telling the truth in the Vinaya Pitaka.
If so, in  MN 111 and MN 74 it is not Buddha who is lying.
I recall Vinasp saying on DW "some suttas are false, and some are correct"
Some folks got upset at him. At first i did not believe Vinaps either. Now i have no choice but to believe him.
Have a fun day, i enjoy reading the suttas, because aside from the abhidhammikas that made up suttas that really did not happen,
many compilers told the truth also, thank heavens!
Clearly Buddha shines through the canon, only if you are smart enough to recognize the truth from the lie, like Vinasp did. Those who are not smart believe the lies. That probably is why there is so much arguments on Dhamma chat groups.
I wish vinasp could hear me, since only he will believe the things i write.
With love  :candle:
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6491
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Jhana

Post by Dhammanando »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:05 pm Now an eminent scholar calls the first phrase
  • an  extraordinary grammatical construction.
Unfortunately the eminent scholar (I.B. Horner) misunderstood the construction and mistranslated accordingly.

The Pali reads:

gambhīre ñāṇavisaye,
anuttare upadhisaṅkhaye;
vimutte appatte veḷuvanaṁ,
atha ne satthā byākāsi.

Note in particular that veḷuvanaṁ (Bamboo Grove) is in the accusative case, not the locative, and that appatte means "had NOT attained (or reached)", not "had attained". Taken together the two words relate to the two monks' non-arrival in the Bamboo Grove, not to any supposed attainment by them of "matchless freedom".

The new translation by Ven. Brahmali gets it about right:
They had not even reached the Bamboo Grove,
Yet had a profound range of knowledge,
About the supreme end of ownership, about freedom.

The Teacher explained about them:
https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd1/en/brahmali

So when the passage is correctly translated it doesn't contradict the traditional understanding that at this point the two monks are still sekhas.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Dearest Ven. Dhammanando: Thank you for the response. Does Ven. Brahmali disagree with Horner's entire translation?
To bring in the background to the Mahavagga story, 
Horner writes that the two friends Kolita and Upatissa... had reached an agreement
"whoever attains the deathless first, let him announce it"
In the interim Ven. Assaji enters Rajagaha for his almsfood. He has a pleasing demeanor. Sariputta asks
"On account of whom are you, your reverence, gone forth, or who is your teacher, or whose dhamma do you profess?"
He is told
"Those things which proceed from a cause, of these the truth finder has told the cause, and that which is their stopping- the great recluse has such a doctrine"
Sariputta hears this, ..this section is a bit unclear, it has some footnotes that helps in clarification.
"whoever is of the nature to uprise, all that is of the nature to stop"
on hearing this,
Sariputta responds
 "If this is indeed dhamma, you have penetrated  as far as the sorrowless path, unseen for many myriads of aeons"
Later Moggallana inquires of him.
"friend can it be that you, friend have attained the deathless?"
Sariputta replies
"Yes friend, I have attained the deathless"
This is how I understood Horner's translation.
Bahia reached enlightenment by hearing just four lines of Dhamma. Is the Pali canon telling
us that Sariputta was incapable of achieving the deathless on hearing of Dependent
origination?
Elsewhere DN 15 tells us that Ven Ananda was incapable of understanding Dependent Origination.
Do you believe that?
The sutta compilers interpret DO in different ways. In the early suttas DO does not function as an abstract theory of causation. Rather it focusses on the way human suffering is produced and the manner by which it is terminated.
How do you understand Dependent Origination?
Does Ven Brahmali think that Sariputta attained liberation as described in MN 111?
With love :candle:
PS the link you gave to sutta central did not work for me.
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6491
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Jhana

Post by Dhammanando »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:15 pm Does Ven. Brahmali disagree with Horner's entire translation?
Though I haven't undertaken a line-by-line comparison of the two translations, I think it's exceedingly unlikely that he would disagree with Horner's entire translation. Though Horner makes plenty of mistakes in Book of the Discipline, what she gets right greatly exceeds what she gets wrong.

As the link didn't work for you, here is Ven. Brahmali's translation in full:
The account of the going forth of Sāriputta and Moggallāna

At that time the wanderer Sañcaya was staying at Rājagaha with a large group of two hundred and fifty wanderers, including Sāriputta and Moggallāna. The two of them had made an agreement that whoever reached the deathless first would inform the other.

Just then, Venerable Assaji robed up in the morning, took his bowl and robe, and entered Rājagaha for almsfood. He inspired confidence in the way he entered and returned, in his looking at and looking away, in his drawing in and stretching out of his arms; his eyes were lowered, and he was perfect in deportment. The wanderer Sāriputta observed all this and thought, “This monk is among those in the world who are perfected or on the path to perfection. Let me approach him and ask him who he has gone forth under, who his teacher is, and whose teachings he follows.” But it occurred to him, “It’s the wrong time to ask him while he’s walking for almsfood among the houses. Let me follow behind him, for one who seeks the path will find it.”

After walking for almsfood in Rājagaha, Assaji took his almsfood and turned back. Sāriputta then approached him and exchanged pleasantries with him. And he asked, “Venerable, your faculties are clear and your skin is pure and bright. Who have you gone forth under? Who is your teacher or whose teaching do you follow?”

“There’s a great ascetic, a Sakyan who has gone forth from the Sakyan clan. I’ve gone forth under him, he’s my teacher, and I follow his teaching.”

“But what does your teacher teach?”

“I’ve only recently gone forth and so I’m new to this spiritual path. I’m not capable of giving you the Teaching in full, but I can tell you the meaning in brief.”

Sāriputta replied, “Yes, please,” and he added:

“Speak little or much,
But do tell me the meaning.
I just want the meaning,
For what’s the point of a detailed exposition?”

And Assaji gave this teaching to the wanderer Sāriputta:

“Of causally arisen things,
The Buddha has declared their cause,
As well as their ending.
This is the teaching of the Great Ascetic.”

When he had heard this teaching, Sāriputta experienced the stainless vision of the Truth: “Anything that has a beginning has an end.”

“Now this is the truth, even just this,
The sorrowless state that you have penetrated,
Which has been unseen and neglected
Through innumerable eons.”

Then the wanderer Sāriputta went to the wanderer Moggallāna. When Moggallāna saw him coming, he said to Sāriputta, “Your faculties are clear and your skin is pure and bright. You haven’t attained the deathless, have you?”

“Yes, I have.”

“But how did it happen?”

And Sāriputta told him everything up to and including the teaching given by Assaji.

When he had heard this teaching, Moggallāna experienced the stainless vision of the Truth: “Anything that has a beginning has an end.”

“Now this is the truth, even just this,
The sorrowless state that you have penetrated,
Which has been unseen and neglected
Through innumerable eons.”

And Moggallāna said to Sāriputta, “Let’s go to the Buddha; he’s our teacher.”

“But these two hundred and fifty wanderers look to us for support. We must tell them first. They can then act as they think appropriate.” And they went to those wanderers and said, “We’re going to the Buddha; he’s our teacher.”

“But we look to you for support. If you are to practice the spiritual life under the Great Ascetic, so will all of us.”

Then Sāriputta and Moggallāna went to Sañcaya and said, “We’re going to the Buddha; he’s our teacher.”

“Don’t go. Let the three of us look after this community together.”

Sāriputta and Moggallāna said the same thing a second time and a third time, and they got the same reply. They then took those two hundred and fifty wanderers and went to the Bamboo Grove. But the wanderer Sañcaya vomited warm blood right there.

When the Buddha saw Sāriputta and Moggallāna coming, he said to the monks, “The two friends Kolita and Upatissa are coming. They will be my most eminent disciples, an excellent pair.”

They had not even reached the Bamboo Grove,
Yet had a profound range of knowledge,
About the supreme end of ownership, about freedom.
The Teacher explained about them:

“These two friends are coming,
Kolita and Upatissa.
They will be an excellent pair,
My most eminent disciples.”

Sāriputta and Moggallāna approached the Buddha, bowed down with their heads at the Buddha’s feet, and said, “Venerable Sir, we wish to receive the going forth in your presence; we wish to receive the full ordination.” The Buddha said, “Come, monks. The Teaching is well-proclaimed. Practice the spiritual life to make a complete end of suffering.” And that was the full ordination of those venerables.

The going forth of those who were well-known
At that time many well-known Magadhans from good families were practicing the spiritual life under the Buddha. People complained and criticized him, “The ascetic Gotama is making us childless and he’s making widows out of us; he’s breaking up good families. Right now a thousand dreadlocked ascetics have gone forth because of him, and also these two hundred and fifty wanderers who were disciples of Sañcaya. All these well-known Magadhans from good families are practicing the spiritual life under the ascetic Gotama.” And when they saw monks, they confronted them with this verse:

“The Great Ascetic has arrived
At Giribbaja in Magadha.
After leading away all of Sañcaya’s disciples,
Who will he lead away next?”

The monks heard the complaints of those people and they told the Buddha what had happened. Soon afterwards he had the Sangha gathered and said, “The complaining will soon stop; it will only last seven days. And when people confront you like this, you can confront them in return with this verse:

ʻIndeed, the Great Heroes, the Buddhas,
Lead by means of a good teaching.
When you understand this, what indignation can there be
Toward those who lead legitimately?’”

Soon, when they had seen monks, people confronted them with this verse:

“The Great Ascetic has arrived
At Giribbaja in Magadha.
After leading away all of Sañcaya’s disciples,
Who will he lead away next?”

And the monks confronted them in return with this verse:

“Indeed, the Great Heroes, the Buddhas,
Lead by means of a good teaching.
When you understand this, what indignation can there be
Toward those who lead legitimately?”

People thought, “So it seems the Sakyan ascetics lead legitimately, not illegitimately.” And the complaining lasted seven days, and then it stopped.

The account of the going forth of Sāriputta and Moggallāna is finished.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Post Reply