Jhana

[confusedlayman]

Confusedlayman wrote

Thanks pulsar. Yes take ur time. and also I do read suttas as its my inspiration.

It is pretty much clear from your comments, that you read the suttas. Once you wrote about "100 beatings in the morning, 100 beatings midday and 100 beatings in the night". Son's flesh is one sutta where it appears, If you have mastered that, that is all you need to master. Entire doctrine, in that very short sutta. But of course this depends on the beholder.
A brief question, your comment regarding Anathapindika's child, the youngest,
that she was envious of her happily married two older sisters, did you read that in a sutta or commentary?
I have read in the Pali canon that just before her death she called her Dad "My little brother"
and her Dad thought she was delirious before death. Anathapindika reported this to Buddha, and Buddha corrected him, it was not because she was delirious but it was because she was more advanced than her Dad spiritually. She died young, she might have been sickly, that might have been the reason she did not marry?
Envy or jealousy can enter the non-Arahant mind briefly. Both her married sisters were apparently Sotapannas, I am not sure whether that info is in the suttas or a commentary.
Have a beautiful Sunday dear Confusedlayman!
PS I hope you continue to inspire us with your
sutta knowledge.

Hi, my information from here https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... html#part3

your information is not there in what i read. I mean she calling her dad as brother scene is missed in the above link. can u post link of palicanon if available of that exact story?

[confusedlayman]

in vinaya its given,

One who do jhana and later unable to attain jhana, he might go insane or mad (if he never entered noble path of 4 stages of enlightment)

One who do jhana but later lost it unable to enter again wont go insane or mad for sure (if he entered 4 stage path)

my intepretation is that jhana is too powerful for worlding that if he cant enter, he might go mad as this earth life looks terrible to him

But bliss of suchness (not feeling bliss) is too powerful than jhana so jhana itself will be seen as factors coming and going without any substancial real thing in it.. it will be like mirage or banana leaf stacked very high... if u remove leave, u find only air or cushion like leaf stacked which makes it look big

[Pulsar]

Confusedlayman wrote

in vinaya its given,

One who do jhana and later unable to attain jhana, he might go insane or mad (if he never entered noble path of 4 stages of enlightment)
One who do jhana but later lost it unable to enter again wont go insane or mad for sure (if he entered 4 stage path...etc)

Cool, it seems Vinaya has been written and rewritten, sometimes fancifully, to win over non-buddhists. This particular statement probably was written by a monk, frustrated by his attempts at jhana. Suggestion of Insanity, when Samma Samadhi is attempted? Were these Vinaya monks trying to discourage the ones who would experience Upeksa-sati-parisuddhi. However I assume the latter would be wise, and would not be discouraged by such outrageous rants.
Would Buddha include a practice that would lead to insanity as the final stage of the 8-fold path? Don't listen to vinaya ramblings, read the suttas in this regard. MN 53 "The Disciple in Higher Training" I suggest at this time.
With love
PS Perhaps the ones who went insane, had unstable minds to begin with? Jhana is a spiritual practice that should be undertaken only by the mentally solid.

[Pulsar]

MN 53, some salient points from Sekha sutta. Regarding the practice
https://suttacentral.net/mn53/en/sujato
A synopsis: In Nigrodha's Park at Kapilavasthu, for much of the night Buddha had roused and gladdened the Sakyans, his back begins to hurt, he says to Ven. Ananda "Ananda speak to the Sakyans" While he lay down in Lion's pose on a patchwork quilt, Ananda speaks of the seven good qualities of the Disciple in Higher Training, 

• He is one who obtains at will, without trouble or difficulty, the four jhanas, that constitute the higher mind and provide a pleasant abiding.One who lives a life conducive to jhana, that one obtains at will.

I want to emphasize Jhana is a natural activity, when one lives accordingly. Often the literature makes jhana seem like impossible to obtain, but perhaps for those that impossibility is in living the ethical life and not states of jhana. It is overthinking that leads one to insanity. In jhana, Papanca ceases, it is not insanity that results, but perfect sanity.

How should one live? in order to obtain jhana?
1. He places his faith in the Tathagata's enlightenment thus: The blessed One is accomplished, fully enlightened, perfect in true knowledge and conduct, sublime, knower of worlds, incomparable leader of persons, to be tamed, teacher of Gods and humans, enlightened, blessed.
2.He has shame, is ashamed of bad conduct.
3.He has fear of wrongdoing.
4.learning much, remembers what he has learned, reinforcing these, mentally scrutinizises the teachings, investigates them, and comprehends them theoretically. 
5.He is energetic, he is steadfast, firm in striving. They live with energy roused up for giving up unskillful qualities and embracing skillful qualities, not slacking off when it comes to developing skillful qualities. 
6. He has mindfulness; he possesses the highest mindfulness and skill (Samma Sati?)
7. He is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress.

"Again, how does the disciple of the noble ones obtain at will — without trouble or difficulty — the four jhanas that constitute heightened awareness and a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now? (Four jhanas are described here step by step) This is how the disciple of the noble ones obtains at will — without trouble or difficulty — the

• four jhanas that constitute heightened awareness and a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now.

Dear Confusedlayman: it is unlikely when one sticks to this program, that one will end up in the nut house. You inspired me to summarize this sutta, by reporting the mistaken notion found in Vinaya. Thank You.
PS factors 2 and 3 shame and dread elsewhere is called Hiri Otappa, Guardians of the world

• For those whom moral shame and moral fear are at all times unknown—
  they, turning away from the roots of light, are those who go to birth and death.

Sense faculties should be incessantly guarded...in Buddha's dispensation. Budhha asked for nothing less than this. It is not a blocking of senses as in MN 152 that is meant, like what the brahmins practiced. Arupas imply such a practice.
Newly risen sun invites. With light and love

[Dhammanando]

in vinaya its given,

Where in the Vinaya is this stated?

[confusedlayman]

in vinaya its given,

Where in the Vinaya is this stated?

Hi bhante, it is given as extra comment by buddha or some arhant under insanity rule if im not wrong.. I read in a website just yesterday where eloborate text is given for each rule..... i am retriving the webpage again to exact rule and i will post link here once i find it..

[confusedlayman]

MN 53, some salient points from Sekha sutta. Regarding the practice
https://suttacentral.net/mn53/en/sujato
A synopsis: In Nigrodha's Park at Kapilavasthu, for much of the night Buddha had roused and gladdened the Sakyans, his back begins to hurt, he says to Ven. Ananda "Ananda speak to the Sakyans" While he lay down in Lion's pose on a patchwork quilt, Ananda speaks of the seven good qualities of the Disciple in Higher Training, 

• He is one who obtains at will, without trouble or difficulty, the four jhanas, that constitute the higher mind and provide a pleasant abiding.One who lives a life conducive to jhana, that one obtains at will.

I want to emphasize Jhana is a natural activity, when one lives accordingly. Often the literature makes jhana seem like impossible to obtain, but perhaps for those that impossibility is in living the ethical life and not states of jhana. It is overthinking that leads one to insanity. In jhana, Papanca ceases, it is not insanity that results, but perfect sanity.

How should one live? in order to obtain jhana?
1. He places his faith in the Tathagata's enlightenment thus: The blessed One is accomplished, fully enlightened, perfect in true knowledge and conduct, sublime, knower of worlds, incomparable leader of persons, to be tamed, teacher of Gods and humans, enlightened, blessed.
2.He has shame, is ashamed of bad conduct.
3.He has fear of wrongdoing.
4.learning much, remembers what he has learned, reinforcing these, mentally scrutinizises the teachings, investigates them, and comprehends them theoretically. 
5.He is energetic, he is steadfast, firm in striving. They live with energy roused up for giving up unskillful qualities and embracing skillful qualities, not slacking off when it comes to developing skillful qualities. 
6. He has mindfulness; he possesses the highest mindfulness and skill (Samma Sati?)
7. He is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress.

"Again, how does the disciple of the noble ones obtain at will — without trouble or difficulty — the four jhanas that constitute heightened awareness and a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now? (Four jhanas are described here step by step) This is how the disciple of the noble ones obtains at will — without trouble or difficulty — the

• four jhanas that constitute heightened awareness and a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now.

Dear Confusedlayman: it is unlikely when one sticks to this program, that one will end up in the nut house. You inspired me to summarize this sutta, by reporting the mistaken notion found in Vinaya. Thank You.
PS factors 2 and 3 shame and dread elsewhere is called Hiri Otappa, Guardians of the world

• For those whom moral shame and moral fear are at all times unknown—
  they, turning away from the roots of light, are those who go to birth and death.

Sense faculties should be incessantly guarded...in Buddha's dispensation. Budhha asked for nothing less than this. It is not a blocking of senses as in MN 152 that is meant, like what the brahmins practiced. Arupas imply such a practice.
Newly risen sun invites. With light and love

Yes, I read the sutta and its stright forward. Now i am on sence restrain mode ... lets see how it goes... hard to stop hearing music though lol

[Pulsar]

Confusedlayman wrote

Yes, I read the sutta and its stright forward. Now i am on sence restrain mode ... lets see how it goes... hard to stop hearing music though lol

Sense restraint is the best deal in town, do not try to block the senses, and practice Arupas, those are
Upanisad practices that have leaked into the Sutta Pitaka. Over time you will understand what the
teachings of Buddha and what the teachings of subsequent teachers are, that are found in the Pali canon.
I can give you an example using Itivutakka and Atthakavagga. Ask me later, or bug me.
You are good at that.
Have you read the threads on J. Bronkhorst, posted by Ceisiwr an amazing scholar. With time when you are done with Sutta Pitaka, read some of his works. He also has another thread on Jainism and Buddhism. It goes something like "Jain ideas absorbed into Buddhism". Buddha basically used some of the ideas already existing and tweaked them to suit the 8fp, not that Buddha used jain or upanishad Arupas to awaken. Buddha rejected the Arupas anyways. But subsequent teachers influenced by Upanisads introduced these to the canon. Quite a play there, Bronkhorst talks about it. That enables the theravadins to dispute 8fp until the next
Buddha arrives.
As for music "no worries" even Buddha enjoyed music. There is one sutta where Sakka sends
a musician to distract Buddha from his meditation, before Sakka could approach him, a trick?
It worked, Buddha apparently complemented the musician on his musical
talents. Buddha was not boring like that at all. I am sure he loved nature too,
the serene landcapes and flowering groves. When you read Theragatha, you find lots
of beautiful songs about nature. Highly spiritual people have a playful
nature too. Jhana practitioners are always happy, If they were not happy, they could
not possibly do jhana.
With love
PS when listening to music, listen only to heavenly music.

[Pulsar]

I think of applications of mindfulness, four buddhist jhanas and satipatthanas fall under these. Maintenance of mindfulness inclines one towards Nibbana, but how?
by making the ever regenerating consciousness homeless. In the Pali canon there are suttas that directly address this. When consciousness lands in a home, it finds delight in that home.
If it is unable to land anywhere, it has no place to delight in. 

Stangling of consciousness?

The problem for the puthujjana is, we just don't have the heart to execute this murder of our own free will, because halfway thru, we begin suffocating, and release the hold, we continue

to resuscitate consciousness.

However, at physical death without our help the aggregates gang up on us and kill us. A new becoming ....birthing as long as fuel is injected. 
But invisible becomings go on within one life too, If you examine DO, there is a zillion newborns on a daily basis. 
Ending of a sutta: an excerpt 

"........where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food... contact... intellectual intention... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or increase.

The role played by delight? In Mulapariyaya sutta MN 1 Buddha warns the monks not to delight, sutta ironically ends with

"That is what the Blessed One said. But those bhikkhus did not delight in the blessed One's words" 

Ironic ain't it? All other suttas end with "and the bhikkhus delighted at the teaching"
To get back to Atthi Raga sutta, it continues

Where consciousness does not land or increase,
there is no alighting of name-&-form. Where there is no alighting of name-&-form,
there is no growth of fabrications.
Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future.
Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future,
there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."
where there is no sorrow and affliction there is the final deliverance

the ending of Atthi Raga sutta SN 12.64 that inclines one towards Nibbana.

These issues do not arise for the Tathagata, SN 22.94 'Flowers' ends with

"Tathagata was born in the world and grew up in the world, but having overcome the world, he dwells unsullied by the world,"

which means Arahant is not overcome by the 5 aggregates. We unfortunately are! With love 

[confusedlayman]

I think of applications of mindfulness, four buddhist jhanas and satipatthanas fall under these. Maintenance of mindfulness inclines one towards Nibbana, but how?
by making the ever regenerating consciousness homeless. In the Pali canon there are suttas that directly address this. When consciousness lands in a home, it finds delight in that home.
If it is unable to land anywhere, it has no place to delight in. 

Stangling of consciousness?

The problem for the puthujjana is, we just don't have the heart to execute this murder of our own free will, because halfway thru, we begin suffocating, and release the hold, we continue

to resuscitate consciousness.

However, at physical death without our help the aggregates gang up on us and kill us. A new becoming ....birthing as long as fuel is injected. 
But invisible becomings go on within one life too, If you examine DO, there is a zillion newborns on a daily basis. 
Ending of a sutta: an excerpt 

"........where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food... contact... intellectual intention... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or increase.

The role played by delight? In Mulapariyaya sutta MN 1 Buddha warns the monks not to delight, sutta ironically ends with

"That is what the Blessed One said. But those bhikkhus did not delight in the blessed One's words" 

Ironic ain't it? All other suttas end with "and the bhikkhus delighted at the teaching"
To get back to Atthi Raga sutta, it continues

Where consciousness does not land or increase,
there is no alighting of name-&-form. Where there is no alighting of name-&-form,
there is no growth of fabrications.
Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future.
Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future,
there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."
where there is no sorrow and affliction there is the final deliverance

the ending of Atthi Raga sutta SN 12.64 that inclines one towards Nibbana.

These issues do not arise for the Tathagata, SN 22.94 'Flowers' ends with

"Tathagata was born in the world and grew up in the world, but having overcome the world, he dwells unsullied by the world,"

which means Arahant is not overcome by the 5 aggregates. We unfortunately are! With love 

This answer is already given from personal expeirence other thread.. conciousness is fixed awareness on object. only when awareness fix on object, the knowledge of the object me known in order words, only when awareness falls on object the stress related to object arises. When awareness is not focused, its bare awarneess, signless, all round (unfocused), such ness, no perception, no non perception, no memory, no knowingness for that period of time, conciousness without surface (awareness cant fix on object due to non ignorance) yet it exist....

unfocused awareness = conciousness with out surface
focused awareness = conciousness falls on surface

Object is needed for awareneess to fall on it and know it... so awareness now its called conciosuness just because its conciousness of particular object... so conciousness arise only when there is object.. when no object, awareness dont focus hence we cant say conciousness arises ... even aware of awarneess is focused awarneess (conciousness) and object is immeditate memory of non conciousness (unfocused awareness)

[Pulsar]

Cofusedlayman wrote

"no memory, no knowingness for that period of time, conciousness without surface (awareness cant fix on object due to non ignorance) yet it exist

When folks combine truth with non truth, it is like a beautiful woman with no substance
within, enticing to begin with, sheer dissapointment afterwards.
Can you give me a sutta reference for above quote pl.? or did you read it in some obscure Vinaya, where
no references are available?
Arahants jolly well have the memory intact, does not have Alzheimer's according to Sutta Pitaka.
You also wrote

When awareness is not focused, its bare awarneess, signless, all round (unfocused),

You seem to understand the Concepts of bare awareness or Vinnana Matta and signlessness, in a way
that comes across as

Strangery

to me.
Can you pl break down "Vinnana Matta" for me, so that I can understand where you are coming from. Who knows
you might have your very own way of interpreting these phenomena.
You are cute! With love
PS Paying more attention to your entire quote afterwards, is this your personal experience? If so
you should post it in the Personal Experience Forum.

[confusedlayman]

Cofusedlayman wrote

"no memory, no knowingness for that period of time, conciousness without surface (awareness cant fix on object due to non ignorance) yet it exist

When folks combine truth with non truth, it is like a beautiful woman with no substance
within, enticing to begin with, sheer dissapointment afterwards.
Can you give me a sutta reference for above quote pl.? or did you read it in some obscure Vinaya, where
no references are available?
Arahants jolly well have the memory intact, does not have Alzheimer's according to Sutta Pitaka.
You also wrote

When awareness is not focused, its bare awarneess, signless, all round (unfocused),

You seem to understand the Concepts of bare awareness or Vinnana Matta and signlessness, in a way
that comes across as

Strangery

to me.
Can you pl break down "Vinnana Matta" for me, so that I can understand where you are coming from. Who knows
you might have your very own way of interpreting these phenomena.
You are cute! With love
PS Paying more attention to your entire quote afterwards, is this your personal experience? If so
you should post it in the Personal Experience Forum.

its my personal intepretation and thats what i can experience when i do validation. Sutta actually say this thing but in different words hence it doesnt look same but practice wise it should be same .. maybe try ur method and my method may work only for me...

[Pulsar]

Confusedlayman wrote

Sutta actually say this thing but in different words

Can you give me a link to that sutta. Even though the words are different, I am curious. I stick to the "methodless method" so I have no method, even the gods are confused by it. You can read it in Sandha sutta.
You failed to explain 'Vinnana-Matta', or bare awareness, can you take a moment to do that please? In which sutta did you read that? I just need the sutta number. I can look it up, No need for a link.
Be well!

[confusedlayman]

Confusedlayman wrote

Sutta actually say this thing but in different words

Can you give me a link to that sutta. Even though the words are different, I am curious. I stick to the "methodless method" so I have no method, even the gods are confused by it. You can read it in Sandha sutta.
You failed to explain 'Vinnana-Matta', or bare awareness, can you take a moment to do that please? In which sutta did you read that? I just need the sutta number. I can look it up, No need for a link.
Be well!

Unlimited Awareness
"On seeing a form with the eye, he isn't infatuated with pleasing forms, and doesn't get upset over unpleasing forms. He dwells with body-mindfulness established,[11] with unlimited awareness. He discerns, as it has come to be, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned compliance & opposition, he doesn't relish any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — doesn't welcome it, doesn't remain fastened to it. As he doesn't relish that feeling, doesn't welcome it, & doesn't remain fastened to it, delight doesn't arise. From the cessation of his delight comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"On hearing a sound with the ear...

"On smelling an aroma with the nose...

"On tasting a flavor with the tongue...

"On sensing a tactile sensation with the body...

"On cognizing an idea with the intellect, he isn't infatuated with pleasing ideas, and doesn't get upset over unpleasing ideas. He dwells with body-mindfulness established, with unlimited awareness. He discerns, as it has come to be, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned compliance & opposition, he doesn't relish any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — doesn't welcome it, doesn't remain fastened to it. As he doesn't relish that feeling, doesn't welcome it, & doesn't remain fastened to it, delight doesn't arise. From the cessation of his delight comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Monks, remember this, my brief [account of] release through the destruction of craving; and Sāti, the Fisherman's Son, as tied up in the great net of craving, the great tangle of craving."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.

Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

according to me bare awareness is awareness not locked to any object of sence or intellect or memory... it is just product of brain function...

[Pulsar]

CFL wrote 

"On hearing a sound with the ear..."On smelling an aroma with the nose...
"On tasting a flavor with the tongue..."On sensing a tactile sensation with the body..."On cognizing an idea with the intellect, he isn't infatuated with pleasing ideas, and doesn't get upset over unpleasing ideas. He dwells with body-mindfulness established, with unlimited awareness.MN 38

Good thank you ...It is the idea of bare-cognition or Vinnana-Matta incorporated into narrative of MN 38. In the entire Pali canon the term "Vinnana-Matta" however is used twice only. ie In Malunkyaputta SN, and the sutta on Bahia. That teaching on bare awareness is found in MN 38. Appears in other suttas too.
Your interpretation of Bare cognition however appears to be flawed since you wrote 

according to me bare awareness is awareness not locked to any object of sence or intellect or memory

True.
You also wrote

it is just product of brain functiona product of brain function?

what do you mean by this? 

• Does anybody with a brain, have unlimited awareness? exhibit Vinnana-matta?

Some points i like to stress here, since you are of brahmanic origin and also cling to notions of Arupa Samapathis,

• these were not the teachings of the Buddha. An influx of non-buddhist ideas and practices into Pali canon have distorted the clarity of Buddha's teachings.

• Practices and ideas related to the Buddha's teachers were taken over by the canon, and commentators like Vasubandu and Buddhaghosa justified these, saying these are meant for Arahants or Anagamins.

• Formless meditation was buddhicized.

You appear to claim "Right meditation is objectless meditation"
I agree.
You also praise Arupa samapathis which lock consciousness into these domains. How can one have conviction in both? or do you  misunderstand both? Which one do you subscribe to? Arupa samapathis or objectless meditation. 
Can you summarise Sandha sutta AN 11.10? https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN11_10.html 
This will help us clear up this confusion?
with love