Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

There is more than one way to skin a cat, so are there more ways than one of digging for the ending of suffering. Summarizing some of my comments so far on this Jhana thread.
The Buddha, as he so often did, borrowed a well-known phrasing but changed the first-person “I” to the third-person “It”, cleverly stripping away the notion of a self from the phrase and bringing it more in line with the teaching on anattā.
it turned out to be pretty effective, leading a practitioner right up to the point of awakening AN 7.55
https://suttacentral.net/an7.55/en/sujato
Based on this phrase we find several suttas. SN 22.50 is based on Parayana too. Parayana appears to have played a dominant role in the awakening of some lay people.
SN 7.53 refers to a lay woman, a non-returner who meets the two chief disciples. Sariputta Exclaims
"It's astounding and amazing Nanadamata that you can purify even the arising of a thought"
Now imagine that. You go girl!
  • A woman non returner out of the blue?
Imagine the many women non-returners that went unreported, in a canon that was compiled by men. Imagination helps.
Returning to SN 22.50
"'This has come to be? "Do you see This has come to be"...One practises for the purpose of revulsion towards what has come to be, for its fading away and cessation"' 
  • Its origination occurs with that as nutriment

SN 12.63 Role of Sons' flesh as a reminder not to deviate from the path. Buddha's message and warning
"You are feeding on your own son's flesh, when you think, speak, act mindlessly"
Ajitha's question in Parayana describes cessation as
"Individuality can be brought to a total end by the cessation of consciousness in the jhanic state."
(cessation of the mobility of the mind, imperturbability, cut-off from sensory world, where rupa ceases to form, hence no nama-rupa, vinnana fabrication)
“It might not be, and it might not be mine. It will not be, and it will not be mine”
which is the Buddha’s pragmatic revision of the phrasing. The outsiders’ view is
“I might not be, and it might not be mine. I will not be, and it will not be mine”
which would be the annihilationist version.
Kamma is to felt and not identified with, SN 12.37. Sutta speaks of cessation of volitional formations.
  • It is impossible to undermine volition, sometimes called citta, sometimes samkhara, sometimes kamma.
There is more than one way to skin the cat.
Kimsuka sutta is a prime example of this, presents different ways in which freedom from suffering can be achieved. https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN35_204.html
MN 121, sutta on the lesser void is not a description of 4th jhana, but form vanishes in the Void.
In the long run it is all about suspending Nama rupa and all that jazz.
Nandakovada sutta MN 146: a teaching to the nuns presents an  upaya or trick to lose suffering using a cow simile.
"Just as if a skilled butcher or butcher's apprentice, having killed a cow, were to carve it up with a sharp carving knife so that ...
MN 146 https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN146.html
Once again there is more than way to skin a cat. It might be hard to approach Nibbana with a one track mind.
In the malleable mind, the different knowledges resonate revealing the freedom from suffering.
With love :candle:
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pitithefool
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Re: Jhana

Post by pitithefool »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:35 pm
:goodpost:

Indeed, there are as many ways the Buddha taught the end of suffering as there are suttas in the canon.

The particular way in which the Buddha or anyone taught a student was most apt for way the particular student or students would respond.

I hold that the dhamma has a single way in which it works, and that's to somehow get the mind to turn away from conditioned phenomena and instead turn it towards the deathless.

As for the particulars, as you've pointed out, it's almost never that simple. If it were, the tipitaka wouldn't be so voluminous.

That's why there are so many teachings, so many different ways of thinking about things, so many ways of explaining the practice. Even now, thousands of years after the Buddha passed, new ways can be thought up in addition to the old, and that's an invaluable skill for teachers to have. But it's good to keep the canon homogenous so that it lasts a long time. Nowadays, the dhamma is indeed difficult to discern.
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

pitithefool wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:16 am That's why there are so many teachings, so many different ways of thinking about things, so many ways of explaining the practice. Even now, thousands of years after the Buddha passed, new ways can be thought up in addition to the old, and that's an invaluable skill for teachers to have. But it's good to keep the canon homogenous so that it lasts a long time. Nowadays, the dhamma is indeed difficult to discern.
What you say is what the user called Pulsar is against. What Pulsar mean about 'skinning the cat many ways' is within the earliest Suttas. The later additions are no no.
The keeping canon homogeneous is also a bit off the beat, user Pulsar would gladly reformat Suttas and take 'arupa jhanas' out of the canon like nowadays nature-persons will remove invasive species as wanting 4 arupa jhanas to return back to Upanishads or Samkhya traditions.

But on the other hand within closed doors Pulsar walks his domesticated dog to a forest. Claiming hindu's stealing from Suttas, it could be because Pulsars descriptions of jhana sound more hindu tradition than canon.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:36 pm
The keeping canon homogeneous is also a bit off the beat, user Pulsar would gladly reformat Suttas and take 'arupa jhanas' out of the canon like nowadays nature-persons will remove invasive species as wanting 4 arupa jhanas to return back to Upanishads or Samkhya traditions.
The formless come from annihilationists. They have a place in the path, as an option.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:53 pm
auto wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:36 pm
The keeping canon homogeneous is also a bit off the beat, user Pulsar would gladly reformat Suttas and take 'arupa jhanas' out of the canon like nowadays nature-persons will remove invasive species as wanting 4 arupa jhanas to return back to Upanishads or Samkhya traditions.
The formless come from annihilationists. They have a place in the path, as an option.
(i don't think formless come from annihilationists)
here's some hindu(not related to what you said tho)
auto wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:55 pm
Pulsar wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:12 am ..
..im little bit skimming the beginning of this book you mentioned, right now.

"Nama-Rupa and Dharma-Rupa: Origins and Aspects of an Ancient Indian Conception"
By Maryla Falk
in common self-conscious existence the potential all-consciousness lies asleep in the depths of human being, but it may be awakened in yoga - The place where both "purusas" unite is the heart; they have a path in common: it is the vein susumna leading upwards from the heart to the top of the skull. When their union takes place, self-consciousness disappears- there is no longer any distinction between the outer and the inner world..
this information.. is decent. (typed it from the book, typos and possible other mistakes are mine)
in the Upanishads we are faced with the parallel microcosmic formulation of the ancient mythical
consception: the motif of the Purusa's dismemberment at the dawn of the cosmic becoming reappears in these text
as the differentiation of the atman(the latter term being adopted since the Atharvanic stage as the chief
designation of the psycho-cosmic Purusa) into the vital functions or pranas. In this condition, that is to say
in the common conscious existence of man, the atman cannot be realized becase he is non-total(asarva), reality
being differntiated(vyakriate) in names-and-forms(BAU I, 4, 7).
But in a particular state of "knowledge", in the ecstatic unification of man's being in which the pranas become steady
and melt into one(in the later texts this state is called samadhi; similar wordings are already met with in the oldest
Upandishadic texts: cf. samastah samprasannah ChU VIII, 6, 3, hence samprasada = atman ibid. 3, 4 and 12,3;
the psychic exercise by which this unification is enacted in the waking condition - namely the discipline of yoga -
is already practised since at least the Atharvanic period(as I have repeatedly pointed out), and is known in the AV.
under the verbal forms of the later technical term), the reconstituted atman, having left the bodily differentiated existence
and reached the supernal Light(the highest sphere of the transcendent brahman), comes forth in his own Form(svena rupenabhinispadyate),
viz., the one-and-total rupa of the universal supreme Purusa(sa uttamah purusah) (ChU VIII, 12,3).
So his supersensuous reality is hidden in the pranas which are his "functional names"(tasyaitani karmanamani BAU I, 4, 7): his true name is atman.
Therefore one must not realize him under those single aspects in mediation producing identity with the object(upas-upasana), for in this way
one does not "know": one must indeed realize him as atman ":" there all the(pranas) become one".
Knowledge of names is in fact knowledge of things, for according to the ancient Indian conception names are nowise fortuitous
desiginations, but are expressive of the innermost essence and power of the things named. We already met with the notion that the real names
are hidden, and only the seer discovers them. As "knowledge" is identification with the thing known, the more one "knows",
the greater one becomes; by "knowing the all", or, in the terms of this conception, by effectuating the redintegration of all names
in the unique and universal name, Vac, one "becomes the All", becomes identified with the universal Purusa.
This state of universal knowledge(styled pratibodha in the Upanishads[BAU I, 4 Kena 12], bodhi or sambodhi in Buddhism) takes place
in the ecstatic vision, the Upanishadic description of which(BAU II, 3, 6, cf. V, 7;Kena 10-12;29:ChU VIII, 4, 2;Katha VI, 2;etc.) - as
lightning instant of illumination whereby immortality is attained in brahman thorugh extension to universal existence - had already
been anticipated in the Rigvedic seer's description of his cosmic transfiguration thorugh the reception of Vac in lightning-form, and
in the Atharvanic seer's words on the instant in which he embraced heaven and earth, attaining the First-born of reality as Vac within
the speaker, i.e. realizing Purusa in his own heart, which is the seat of Speech.

Alongside with such psychological descriptions of unification of reality in consciousness as we often meet in the Upanishads,
there are also otehr descritions of this process, bearing a more markedly mythical hue and keeping in close continuity with the Vedic myth.
Within man there are two purusas, a male and a female(sometimes it is said they may be seen in the right and in the left eye).
He is styled Indha, the "enkindler" - "though they call him Indra for the same of mystery, as gods lovewaht is mysterious and hate what is obvious"
-; for in his true nature he is Prana, the enkindler of life, but also of the yogic fire-body(yogaagnimayam sariram Svet.U I, 12d): the fundamental vital power,
which, according to the form - or rather the direction - of its activity, determines the lot of the individual: the downwards direction leads to individuation, the
upward one to salvation.
Whereas she is styled Viraj, with a very ancient epither of the all-goddess Vac(see alrady RV.X, 189, 3 trimsad dhama vi-rajati vak.., and later on ChU I, 13,2:ya vag virat.
"Prana is the male, the male of Vac", Sat. Br. VII, 5 1, 7). HEr character is that of consciousness, prajna or prajnatman, only partially actual in the individual self-
consciosuenss distinguishing the I from the Not-I, the inner world from the outer one.
See it is lots of information for possible(if Brahma realms aren't in 3rd jhana) first 2 jhanas.
--
i guess why you aren't happy with Hindu is that its not just bare awareness. Like in school, introductions area easy but if to look close there opens up lots of mechanics, and oops i actually need practice?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:02 pm
(i don't think formless come from annihilationists)
DN 1 states they are to do with annihilationists. Elsewhere it is said those disgusted by perception/conceptualisation practice them. In other words, disgusted by existence.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
sphairos
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Re: Jhana

Post by sphairos »

but don't forget that "annihilationists" are materialists who teach that the essence/self is a product of four elements and disappears after death of the body. How do you combine that with formless samapattis?
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How true are your ways?
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

sphairos wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:17 pm but don't forget that "annihilationists" are materialists who teach that the essence/self is a product of four elements and disappears after death of the body. How do you combine that with formless samapattis?
there is more
https://suttacentral.net/dn1/en/sujato wrote:But someone else says to them:Tamañño evamāha:
‘*That* self of which you speak does exist, I don’t deny it.‘atthi kho, bho, eso attā, yaṃ tvaṃ vadesi, neso natthīti vadāmi;
But that’s not how *this* self becomes rightly annihilated.no ca kho, bho, ayaṃ attā ettāvatā sammā samucchinno hoti.
There is another self which has gone totally beyond perceptions of form. With the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that “space is infinite”, it’s reborn in the dimension of infinite space.Atthi kho, bho, añño attā sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā “ananto ākāso”ti ākāsānañcāyatanūpago.
You don’t know or see that.Taṃ tvaṃ na jānāsi na passasi.
But I know it and see it.Tamahaṃ jānāmi passāmi.
Since this self is annihilated and destroyed when the body breaks up, and doesn’t exist after death, that’s how this self becomes rightly annihilated.’So kho, bho, attā yato kāyassa bhedā ucchijjati vinassati, na hoti paraṃ maraṇā, ettāvatā kho, bho, ayaṃ attā sammā samucchinno hotī’ti.That is how some assert the annihilation of an existing being.Ittheke sato sattassa ucchedaṃ vināsaṃ vibhavaṃ paññapenti. (4: 54)
it goes up to the last formless, neither perception nor nonperception.

It is wrong view regardless, on same basis as what you said it disappears after death, some just have attained higher realm.
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:05 pm
auto wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:02 pm
(i don't think formless come from annihilationists)
DN 1 states they are to do with annihilationists. Elsewhere it is said those disgusted by perception/conceptualisation practice them. In other words, disgusted by existence.
but annihilationsim is exclusive to what formless states are. You can flush annihilationist down the toilet, formless attainments still are there and there are those who claim extinguishment on 'here and now'(1-4 jhana), which is also wrong view equal stance to annihilationism.

*judging from quick glance to dn1
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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

I think annhiliontist describe the present experience as self (or witness as self) it dies when one is unconcious
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:17 pm but don't forget that "annihilationists" are materialists who teach that the essence/self is a product of four elements and disappears after death of the body. How do you combine that with formless samapattis?
That is only 1 form of annihilationism. See DN 1. Also, I’m not sure we can even speak of “materialism” in the suttas.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:31 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:05 pm
auto wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:02 pm
(i don't think formless come from annihilationists)
DN 1 states they are to do with annihilationists. Elsewhere it is said those disgusted by perception/conceptualisation practice them. In other words, disgusted by existence.
but annihilationsim is exclusive to what formless states are. You can flush annihilationist down the toilet, formless attainments still are there and there are those who claim extinguishment on 'here and now'(1-4 jhana), which is also wrong view equal stance to annihilationism.

*judging from quick glance to dn1
The formless states are the annihilationist’s attempt to annihilate themselves.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
sphairos
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Re: Jhana

Post by sphairos »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:05 pm
sphairos wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:17 pm but don't forget that "annihilationists" are materialists who teach that the essence/self is a product of four elements and disappears after death of the body. How do you combine that with formless samapattis?
That is only 1 form of annihilationism. See DN 1. Also, I’m not sure we can even speak of “materialism” in the suttas.
There is DN 1, and there are other suttas. In other suttas most often the annihilationists are "materialists", close to European materialists.

Basically, I wouldn't lump everything together. The ones who practice the formless ones are very different that the ones who teach that the death is the end.

The Buddha's Middle way is "between" annihilationists and eternalists. The ones who practice the formless ones are rather eternalists, no?
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How true are your ways?
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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot »

sphairos wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:14 pm There is DN 1, and there are other suttas. In other suttas most often the annihilationists are "materialists", close to European materialists.
I doubt there are any suttas that call annihilationists "materialists". Just because some annihilationist views refer to life being composed of "elements" ("dhatu") does not make them different to the teaching of the Buddha, who also said life is composed of "elements" ("dhatu"). The only aspects of the annihilationist view different to Buddha are: (i) belief in self; and (ii) disbelief in the efficacy of kamma.
sphairos wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:14 pmThe Buddha's Middle way is "between" annihilationists and eternalists.
I doubt you understand what the above words mean. Both annihilationists and eternalists merely continue to hold 'self-view', which is what distinguishes them from the Buddha. Thus, the Buddha is not "between" them. How can "anatta" ("not-self") be "between" two self-views? :shrug:
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Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Auto you have been blocked several times. Why are you still here?
Pl read the OP this thread is for anyone who wants to discuss the 4 jhanas, and the Noble 8-fold path.
  • Noble 8-fold path does not include Arupa samapatthis.
if you want to thrash Pulsar pl do it on your own time. Don't waste my time. I repeat the Noble Path does not include arupa samapathis of your god Vishnu or whoever that came up with those.
  • Vishnu woreshippers who cling to the notion of a self pl. stay away.
There is room on DW. Pl. start your own thread about the god forsaken self, or annihilation or whatever.
I know you started a thread on Arupas long ago, first time i blocked you. It died? right?  
Pl. infuse new life to that one, and welcome your Vishnu fans. You wrote 
it could be because Pulsars descriptions of jhana sound more hindu tradition than canon.
 
Covered with the veils of Upanishads, how would you know? Whatever is written of 4 jhanas, sounds like Vishnu whispering to you.
Give me a break Auto, the hindus with their customs and rituals of breath stopping, sense blocking mind blocking, MN 152 rigorous clueless meditations, could not find their way to the end of suffering in a zillion lifetimes. Remember the Brahmin Parasariya?
He joined with Brahma over and over again, like Einstein's dreams that kept on repeating.
  • Buddha basically decimated the self that was invented and intended to join Brahma.

Are you hurt by this? Sorry Auto, Buddha only had the deepest compassion for guys like you, blinded by ignorance.  
A tangle inside a tangle outside 
This generation is entangled in a tangle.
SN1.23
Pl try to extricate yourself from that thorny hurtful tangle.  
Also watch out! Arupas aint gonna cut it. How on earth could Arupas disentangle one from conditioned origination?
Also this reminder, You are blocked.
With compassion  :candle:
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