Jhana

[auto]

Consider feelings, you are hurt when someone is mean to you. If you think feelings are yourself, then why allow feelings to hurt you.
Don't you have control over them since, you are the owner of them, like the car you own?. Car can be controlled but not your feelings, emotions, thoughts.
Is it fun to be owned by things that are not steady? One gets whipped this way and that way.
Or imagine one gets a disease, say cancer, all those shivers, fearful feelings of death if there is no treatment. If you thought your feelings were you, why are they messing with you? what point is owning feelings that
bring you infamy?

Do you realize that usually when people believe in afterlife and soul then that what peeps here name no-self is by default understood.

there are many things i don't know about the body and are affected by in a certain way that to remove the body function i come incapable, i have no idea how to move hands but despite that i still can move the hands because there are mechanics in body what make it so that deluded ignorant incarnate can use these funtions.

that said, i cultivate body and mind so that eventually "i would not depend on irritation and anger to start produce insulin to get energy from glucose".(".." point was to tell the gravity and seriousness where the practice reaches)

if i learn to control the functions of the internal organs i won't depend on that particular volume of a feeling and it won't appear anymore either there is another feeling what i haven't learned about instead.

yes its not fun to be owned by the feelings what you know are not yours but can't unattach regardless of that. That issue i think you leave out, you think you can't do nothing about the feelings, sensations(a typical no-selfer)..therefore i say sense of self is required for various reasons and one is to get to the brain in head where sense organs converge..

[auto]

Auto when you say

a sense of self is required, it radiates from the body

and implying that you are nothing without this misperceived self, are you not creating quite a predicament for yourself? for the Sublime One has said

these states are a disease, a calamity, a thorn an affliction, they are alien

alienate you from the sweet Dhamma, the Dhamma that is ambrosial. And the force of your conviction make you keep company with a pile of stuff disintegrating, void, that are not your self? but just a fake self?
When you cling to that fake self are you not fooling yourself, are you not doing yourself a disservice? this self is only a crutch that Mara or delusion offers you. Don't take the bait.

you miss the point really. eyes have a field where there is a cavity what connects with the butt area. In that context there is sense of self. If you don't know about the existence of subtle cavities in body from what you can traverse between different regions in body, there is not much room for convincing you or making myself understood.

[Pulsar]

I guess I do not get the point, you said

there is a cavity what connects with the butt area

Where does that cavity originate? If it originates in the oral area, human anatomists call
that the alimentary canal.
Are you referring to this or some other cavity? connected to eye? pl explain

[auto]

I guess I do not get the point, you said

there is a cavity what connects with the butt area

Where does that cavity originate? If it originates in the oral area, human anatomists call
that the alimentary canal.
Are you referring to this or some other cavity? connected to eye? pl explain

some other cavity. There are two eyes which are different, resolving the difference there appear a field in the vision where your focus is felt and substance like, that reality originates from belly.

But in the beginning the focus is freezed and no substance and there is no field in the eyes. There is a different way of concentration on that area than directly you using eyes instead you use your forehead as the point where you hold and feel your focus, while doing your daily things etc it forces the lobes from sides to curve up and inwards down to vision, it over time field will appear and using that field you can concentrate on inner layer of lower belly, which forces substances or flow to enter a cavity in tailbone area or butt area.

the description is muddled but i understand and can do the main points. There is more things other times, depending on other things and different areas in upper belly and breath.

also its just to show what's up, there is also a part where you pull back subtle energies from sensual organ. Getting body free from fetters, chains is full of practical things what doesn't happen by itself.

Why i say its the eyes you start because its the points there you discern firstly, don't try to get calm enough to discern lower points since when the time to discern is up you wiggle and suffer so much because how strong the sensual energies.. if you manage to not act upon them(by sheer will) there will happen something semi-automatically; pressures presses through the point of internest..

if you can maintain awareness with situational awareness with effort like 5 seconds you are pretty good. Here we can see difference between awareness, some claim can have it hours and not fall back to self-talk mode(where you are not aware) they don't just know about that mode(i think) also same people call this state of awareness no-self. *that 5 second awareness is not going to be longer it is just a mode, effort with intense force.

If you fall back from that 5 second awareness there is an aftershock what is pitch black it emanates from head. Also firstly that point in body needs be opened up too and it has a pathway too to climb with different things to do before you get to that area in head.

[Pulsar]

Dera Auto; Thank you for a long response that ends with

If you fall back from that 5 second awareness there is an aftershock what is pitch black it emanates from head. Also firstly that point in body needs be opened up too and it has a pathway too to climb with different things to do before you get to that area in head

It sounds rather interesting. Perhaps others resort to sensual withdrawal in this manner, is this something you learnt at a retreat, or the Vinaya, or by yourself? If by yourself thanks for sharing.

[auto]

Dera Auto; Thank you for a long response that ends with

If you fall back from that 5 second awareness there is an aftershock what is pitch black it emanates from head. Also firstly that point in body needs be opened up too and it has a pathway too to climb with different things to do before you get to that area in head

It sounds rather interesting. Perhaps others resort to sensual withdrawal in this manner, is this something you learnt at a retreat, or the Vinaya, or by yourself? If by yourself thanks for sharing.

self mind + books/written word/internet you name it.

[Pulsar]

Auto wrote

self mind + books/written word/internet you name it

as to how he learned the practices used in his meditation.
Thanks, what you practice however is really not the 4 Buddhist Rupa Jhanas. Do these practices lead you to
insight as Buddha taught, meaning elimination of defilements.

[auto]

Auto wrote

self mind + books/written word/internet you name it

as to how he learned the practices used in his meditation.
Thanks, what you practice however is really not the 4 Buddhist Rupa Jhanas. Do these practices lead you to
insight as Buddha taught, meaning elimination of defilements.

One of the things we talked about is the depth, which includes biological urges, desires, anusaya(underlying tendencies) what originates from biological body.
That alone should tell that i care about fetters, defilements, hindrances..therefore why wouldn't i do a practice what would take care of these issues?

If you pay attention then we should not be attached to jhana and climb to a dimension of non-perception and dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and get to a property of cessation for the cessation of perception and feeling asap.
But first things first you have to actually get to the consciousness plane what corresponds with the first jhana there are beings what are born from the jhana and it is i believe using sense of self and finding its source or host which is Brahma.
We talked about sense of self, i say it is required, you say then something about no self.
While i say sense of self is tangible, the self can be sensed and not only i say it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aham_Brahmasmi

The difference between Brahma and atma emerges most clearly where they appear side by side with one another such as - स वा अयमात्मा ब्रह्म विज्ञानमयो मनोमयः प्राणमयः – 'That Self is indeed Brahma, as also identified with the intellect, the mind and the vital-force'.[6] The Isha Upanishad tells us that the Supreme Brahma present in the Mukhya Prana is the bearer of the secret names of Aham and Asmi.[7] Sankara proclaims that there is a plane where everything is entirely "different"; where laws of maya no longer apply; where distinctions like subject and object fall away; where Tat Tvam Asi and Aham Brahma asmi are actually felt.[8]

Once you get there you are liberated from rebirth or free from slipping back to to this state of existence. There is discernment between state of existence(bhava) and where you actually abide or dwell.
There is Sutta evidence of getting liberated from rebirth, being a Brahma but yet having a physcal body too and visiting his mother.

henceward it is like others tell you, supramundane there are beings, different realms in here and now not some distant next life future.
What i afraid is you suggest something what is compeltely dissected from mystery.

[Pulsar]

Auto the thread is about

the 4 rupa jhanas, when rightly practiced, constitute the 8th factor of noble Path

What you speak about

climb to a dimension of non-perception and dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and get to a property of cessation for the cessation of perception and feeling asap

to these I have not paid attention.
Is this something you practice? the four immaterial meditations that have seeped into the Pali canon is not what Buddha practiced to gain enlightenment. These are not included in the 8th factor of the Noble Path. The discussion is related to the 8th factor of the Noble path.

[auto]

Auto the thread is about

the 4 rupa jhanas, when rightly practiced, constitute the 8th factor of noble Path

What you speak about

climb to a dimension of non-perception and dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and get to a property of cessation for the cessation of perception and feeling asap

to these I have not paid attention.
Is this something you practice? the four immaterial meditations that have seeped into the Pali canon is not what Buddha practiced to gain enlightenment. These are not included in the 8th factor of the Noble Path. The discussion is related to the 8th factor of the Noble path.

bunch of quotes from your posts

When you renounce the thinking and relax, either letting breath suffuse all cells of your body, or have the image of a pebble hitting the water and rippling through the water, at that point there are no hindrances in your mind, you'll get a short insight into how peaceful the first jhana is, one's thoughts are rested, nothing intervenes, except that ripple permeating the water. This could very easily happen to one while walking the silent woods, or to the artist entirely engaged in his task. I merely want to express the simplicity of jhana, without complicating it by using words like nimitta etc,

At least for a short length of time, the meditator has succeeded in being free of the hindrances, and reaching a state of calmness, even if he could not move on to the second jhana, besides, one can accomplish much thru first jhana alone MN 63.

i tried other ways of meditation. Other ways of calming the mind, but these do not lead to insight. Even to practice Satipatthana or Anapanasati, at a higher level, the 4 jhanas are essential.
One can practice these at more preliminary levels

the first step is to remove our minds from the sensory world. Hindrances block our entrance into this samadhi.
Once the mind is free of these, we can easily enter first samadhi, or first jhana. We cannot enter samadhi with a muddled mind. This calming is facilitated if we think of images like a current spreading through water, impacted by impingement of a rock, or water suffusing through soap powder making the soap a uniform sphere, or breath spreading evenly through every body cell, in a calming manner.
These actions are also called

vitaka, vicara

not a big deal. Vitaka is the first impact of the thought, and vicara is the spreading nature of the activity.
When the mind is settled in this activity, one has entered first jhana. Try it at home, it is just this ensuing calmness you feel for a moment, or more. You choose.
This happens to some people on their own, sometimes. For instance there is a point in the day when nothing affects you, of the sensual world, there is a welcome spirit of awakened quality, thought
rests.
This is very similar to the quality of first jhana. There is nothing supernatural about it, perhaps the quality of thought is sublime, that you might feel like you are in the the deva world, free of the vicissitudes of human life. That experience is one of the Rupa world, of course abhidahmmikas called this kind of citta Rupavacara citta, but right now we are not concerned about abhidhmma terminology.
Has anyone felt like this? Pl share your thoughts, one must not start meditation thinking, I am never gonna get this, right?

Calm, calmness and calming seem to be the key word for you. Calming is 'cooling down' which often is taken as nibbana. What you could also mean is jhana what is internal.

https://suttacentral.net/mn122/en/sujato

And how does a mendicant still, settle, unify, and immerse their mind in samādhi internally?
Kathañcānanda, bhikkhu ajjhattameva cittaṃ saṇṭhapeti sannisādeti ekodiṃ karoti samādahati?

It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption … Idhānanda, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi … pe … paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati … pe … second absorption … dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ … third absorption … tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ … fourth absorption. catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. That’s how a mendicant stills, settles, unifies, and immerses their mind in samādhi internally. Evaṃ kho, ānanda, bhikkhu ajjhattameva cittaṃ saṇṭhapeti sannisādeti ekodiṃ karoti samādahati.

whereas external is, when you go to secluded place with your body i guess. So it is possible that the calmness you meant is external.
https://suttacentral.net/mn122/en/sujato

But you should expect that a mendicant who lives alone, withdrawn from the group, will get the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of awakening when they want, without trouble or difficulty. That is possible.

Indeed, Ānanda, it is not possible that a mendicant who enjoys company will enter and remain in the freedom of heart—either that which is temporary and pleasant, or that which is irreversible and unshakable.

"moving mind away from sensory world".<-- That is reference to ayatanas, the dimensions. Hence arupa.

https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato

“What can be known by purified mind consciousness released from the five senses?” “Nissaṭṭhena hāvuso, pañcahi indriyehi parisuddhena manoviññāṇena kiṃ neyyan”ti?

“Aware that ‘space is infinite’ it can know the dimension of infinite space. Aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’ it can know the dimension of infinite consciousness. Aware that ‘there is nothing at all’ it can know the dimension of nothingness.” “Nissaṭṭhena, āvuso, pañcahi indriyehi parisuddhena manoviññāṇena ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ neyyaṃ, ‘anantaṃ viññāṇan’ti viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ neyyaṃ, ‘natthi kiñcī’ti ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ neyyan”ti.

parisuddha manoviññāṇena. Manovinnana is free of asavas. Manovinnana i think is actions, movements, mechanics of mind.

you seem using terms what belong to ayatanas, arupa dimensions or something.

i gather from Sutta and comparing your descriptions then i think,
when you are going into the woods away from noise it is external liberation of heart.

[Pulsar]

Auto wrote

you seem using terms what belong to ayatanas, arupa dimensions or something.

Which word refers to Arupa dimensions? I used MN 63 and you are using MN 122.
MN 122 explains the process somewhat differently taking the case where when jhana does not succeed,
what the meditator should do next, going into further detail.
The word I use 'calming', I meant removal of distractions, gaining a sense of serenity, I did not stick to the exact words used in the canon, I kept it simple.
Would you be happier if used happiness in Jhana 1, increase of rapture thereafter, removal of rapture in step
3, and no residue of joy or rapture in step 4, but just absolute equanimity.
I dislike getting hung up on words, that interferes with the jhanic process, like folks wondering
is it sukkha or joy by this time. What is the point? One might as well call it a sense of
satisfaction.
Perhaps

removal of domanassa and somanassa

would do also, like it is said in the 4
Frames of Reference sutta. The point is to leave the burden behind before settling on these meditations, one cannot meditate on insight with a muddled mind, or an ecstatic mind. The purpose of steps 1, 2, 3 is to create a placid mind, a malleable mind, that will leave behind joy as it enters jhana 4, so that not even joy may interfere with that perfection of equanimity. Now one is ready to meditate on suffering, and its cessation, rise and fall of aggregates etc etc. thereby gradually removing defilements.
PS you wrote at the end

when you are going into the woods away from noise it is external liberation of heart.

What is external liberation of heart? Can you clarify?
Internal and external mindfulness are spoken of in the teaching of 4 establishments of mindfulness, as far as I know

[Pulsar]

Dear Auto: I want to reiterate that I appreciate this conversation, for in a way when Auto introduces another sutta, it makes Pulsar go over it again and again. It is essential to read a variety of suttas, and understand the variety of ways, the teaching is presented.
For instance take MN 121. 'Sutta on the lesser Void'
https://becoming-buddha.com/shunyata-th ... emptiness/
not the 'Sutta on the Grand Void' MN 122, which you introduced. I am glad you did. MN 121 is also talking about quietening the mind, making preparations for entry into void too.
Can you find a single place in this sutta, where Buddha talks about the fine material jhana/Rups Jhana formula? Yet he talks about entering the void, which is the ultimate necessity of the buddhist meditation, to free the mind of the clutter.
Buddha was never deterministic, jhana should not be determined by the language, it is a spiritual activity. In some books jhana is called trance. With such a word an image of mysticism appears to mind, and folks think 'O trance! I can never do that'. See the damage that language does, to right meditation. Or some think one has to sit for an hour-12 hours to rightly meditate, and they introduce these perverted notions into threads.
When I tried sitting for an hour, all I would think of is the discomfort of sitting with my knees crossed after 15 min. What good does that do?
Each one has to fit the practice to suit their physical and mental needs.

That is right effort

Another example, take the 8-fold path, which moves in a spiral manner upwards, from preliminary mundane to supra mundane, stepwise, or natural to supernatural. Some think it is a rigid circle, and say unless your develop right speech, you cannot develop right concentration.
What a bummer? Buddha did not teach like this.

[auto]

Auto wrote

you seem using terms what belong to ayatanas, arupa dimensions or something.

Which word refers to Arupa dimensions? I used MN 63 and you are using MN 122.

which words? i mean the expression "moving mind away from sensory world" and then i quoted MN 43 to supplement my assertion. When manovinnana is released from 5 senses then that consciousness can know space is infinite etc
which are ayatanas what come after consciousness is released from rupa, rupa is object of eye sense organ. What seem also ayatana is sense-field. So if you see anywhere talk about fields it is sense media, ayatana.

consciousness is released when there is no contact. Then instead of 3 feelings the consciousness will know upekkha, which is developed regards to the ayatanas thereon.
emptiness- suñña is adjective, it is felt and i think instead of upekkha in these suttas it is used word suññatā

The word I use 'calming', I meant removal of distractions, gaining a sense of serenity, I did not stick to the exact words used in the canon, I kept it simple.

And here is what mean external, literally shutting the radio off to cut the music or moving away from groups of people who idle chat. Going into the woods. Getting rid of hindrances.
4 jhanas are internal, regards to the individual. I assume it is important to discern the sukha/pleasure on what terms it arises is it because you go to secluded place or is it individual/ajjhattaṃ. It is important since issue with the fetter sakkāya-diṭṭhi is also here somewhere, jhanas are related to that kāya, which is your own body, 3rd jhana is sukha what comes from a body.

then there is emptiness/suñña then there is imperturbable/āneñja which refer to the ayatanas immaterial spheres.

https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato

“How do you understand something that can be known?” “Neyyaṃ panāvuso, dhammaṃ kena pajānātī”ti?
“You understand something that can be known with the eye of wisdom.” “Neyyaṃ kho, āvuso, dhammaṃ paññācakkhunā pajānātī”ti.

“What is the purpose of wisdom?” “Paññā panāvuso, kimatthiyā”ti?
“The purpose of wisdom is direct knowledge, complete understanding, and giving up.” “Paññā kho, āvuso, abhiññatthā pariññatthā pahānatthā”ti.

giving up, itis by wisdom. When can't do then you still rely on desire,rupa or arupa bhava. I know you have said you want purely 4jhana and nothing to do with these terms.

reason to do 4 jhana is to cease the contact on what the 3 types of feelings arise, sukha, dukha, adukkhamasukha. I think it is purely internal alchemy, channels, meridians.. the body thing, what i tried to explain little bit in past posts here what you probably out of ignorance in these matters wrote off as not jhana.

Can you find a single place in this sutta, where Buddha talks about the fine material jhana/Rups Jhana formula? Yet he talks about entering the void, which is the ultimate necessity of the buddhist meditation, to free the mind of the clutter.

you mean mn 121? there are words ayatana. not going to quote here.

It doesn't make the jhana easier somehow because in MN is written in an easier manner than in other Sutta.

Buddha was never deterministic, jhana should not be determined by the language, it is a spiritual activity. In some books jhana is called trance. With such a word an image of mysticism appears to mind, and folks think 'O trance! I can never do that'. See the damage that language does, to right meditation. Or some think one has to sit for an hour-12 hours to rightly meditate, and they introduce these perverted notions into threads.
When I tried sitting for an hour, all I would think of is the discomfort of sitting with my knees crossed after 15 min. What good does that do?
Each one has to fit the practice to suit their physical and mental needs.

That is right effort

Another example, take the 8-fold path, which moves in a spiral manner upwards, from preliminary mundane to supra mundane, stepwise, or natural to supernatural. Some think it is a rigid circle, and say unless your develop right speech, you cannot develop right concentration.
What a bummer? Buddha did not teach like this.

but the point is you need reach to the point you need only eat one meal and in every three days..and run 40km per hour, it is internal alchemy as of ayus and heat in body etc.
but i agree about the pain thing when sitting, you should be able to discern or smart enough that this pain is for a reason and is external. That take when you simply enter the jhana and pain is gone, is wrong i think.

[Pulsar]

Dear Auto: To reply what you have written point by point, in a detailed manner, I do not have the time, but perhaps over the next month, if there is time, I might do so, right now only briefly.
You wrote at the end

but the point is you need reach to the point you need only eat one meal and in every three days.

One meal every 3 days looks to me like an ascetic practice, that Buddha shunned.
The Vinaya rule of no meal after noon, was a rule introduced later. At the beginning of the dispensation there were no rules as to the # of meals/day, for no disciple was over consuming. There was a few incidents as monks walked in the night, on alms rounds. So came about this Vinaya rule, due to 2 reasons, overconsuming monks, and problem of alms rounds in the dark.
There are some non-buddhists who can survive on 1 meal/3 days. But those are the lucky ones, that were born with the right bioschemistry and right metabolism, luck of the draw.
Eating 3 meals/day does not interfere with Buddhist meditation practice (8th factor of the path)
You said the meditator should be able to run

and run 40km per hour, it is internal alchemy as of ayus and heat in body etc

as for running, it almost seems like you are saying an Olympic sprinter might be the best candidate for Buddhist meditation. When one begins to meditate, as in Right concentration,

Buddha never specified a time duration

one undergoes a mental transformation, is this what you mean by

internal alchemy as of ayus and heat in body etc?

There is evidence in the canon, regular laymen became non-returners. Dhammadina's ex husband was a successful businessman, but was a non-returner too. One size does not fit all.

Why the reference to Ayatanas? The whole point of 4th jhana is to create distance from ayatanas, i.e. sense bases, which happens in the Imperturbable state, 4th Rupa Jhana.
Stuff like infinite consciousness, and infinite space automatically happens at the peak of 4th Rupa jhana. In common parlance the 4th Rupa Jhana gives one the freedom to investigate dhammas, as if none of the Rupa is impacted.
There is a term called

change of Lineage

introduced in the commentaries, even with regard to short term meditation. When one succeeds in entering first fine material rupa jhana, that is called a Change of Lineage

transition from the Sensual world (Kama Loka) to the Fine material world (Rupa world)

Curiously, there is never a reference to Change of Lineage from Rupa world to Arupa world. That is because the peak of 4th Rupa jhana is the immaterial world.
You will get a hint of this if you have bothered to spend time reading Sutta nipata.
Some people however reject Sutta Nipata, I do not. That has a series of verses that helped me most in gaining my current understanding of Buddhist meditation, mostly in the "Way to the Beyond" very meaningfully.
Be well dear Auto

[auto]

To reply what you have written point by point, in a detailed manner, I do not have the time,

don't reply in a detailed manner or point by point then. I see you are having trouble quoting.

if you click quote then there is entire text appearing, there select the part you want to quote and click the same quote button again. If want you can open second webpage tab for creating quotes, what you can copy from there to here. I think there are more ways to do it and there is prolly a way what the software developer have intended too.

Why the reference to Ayatanas? The whole point of 4th jhana is to create distance from ayatanas, i.e. sense bases, which happens in the Imperturbable state, 4th Rupa Jhana.

https://suttacentral.net/sn14.11/en/sujato

“The elements of light, beauty, the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness, and the dimension of nothingness are attainments with perception.
The element of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is an attainment with only a residue of conditioned phenomena.

i see you getting more technical in what you write:

Stuff like infinite consciousness, and infinite space automatically happens at the peak of 4th Rupa jhana.

possible,

https://suttacentral.net/sn14.11/en/sujato

“Mendicant, the element of light appears due to the element of darkness.
The element of beauty appears due to the element of ugliness.
The element of the dimension of infinite space appears due to the element of form.

here is a point of interest, is beauty and ugliness a rupa? manasikara thing, maybe we get to know what rupa is, so can know if what we do is jhana or not?

In common parlance the 4th Rupa Jhana gives one the freedom to investigate dhammas, as if none of the Rupa is impacted.

maybe, but we need know what are dhammas here..

introduced in the commentaries, even with regard to short term meditation. When one succeeds in entering first fine material rupa jhana, that is called a Change of Lineage

i think peeps have told you that when you get to the brahma realm there is possible no coming back to this existence, rebirth ended.