Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:14 pm
There is DN 1, and there are other suttas.
Indeed there are other suttas:
DN 1 at DN I 37,1 and its parallels DĀ 21 at T I 93b20, T 21 at T I 269c22, a Tibetan discourse parallel in Weller 1934: 58,3 (§191), a discourse quotation in the *Śāriputrābhidharma, T 1548 at T XXVIII 660b24, and a discourse quotation in D 4094 ju 152a4 or Q 5595 tu 175a8. The same versions also attribute the arising of annihilationist views to the immaterial attainments (for Sanskrit fragments corresponding to the section on annihilationism see also Hartmann 1989: 54 and SHT X 4189, Wille 2008: 307).
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... o/ebms.pdf

Within the Pāli suttas we are told that the following is the doctrine of annihilationists, or some of them:

'I would not be, neither would there be what is mine. I will not be, neither will there be what is mine.'

In MN 106 a similar position, similar to the annihilationist, is a means of entry into Nothingness:
3. Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘I don’t belong to anyone anywhere! And nothing belongs to me anywhere!’ Practicing in this way and meditating on it often their mind becomes confident in this dimension. Being confident, they either attain the dimension of nothingness now, or are freed by wisdom. When their body breaks up, after death, it’s possible that the consciousness headed that way will be reborn in the dimension of nothingness. This is said to be the third way of practice suitable for attaining the dimension of nothingness.
Out of all of the speculative views around, the annihilationist doctrine was foremost as it was close to non-clinging:
(8) “Bhikkhus, of the speculative views held by outsiders, this is the foremost, namely: ‘I might not be and it might not be mine; I shall not be, and it will not be mine.’ For it can be expected that one who holds such a view will not be unrepelled by existence and will not be repelled by the cessation of existence. There are beings who hold such a view. But even for beings who hold such a view there is alteration; there is change. Seeing this thus, the instructed noble disciple becomes disenchanted with it; being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate toward the foremost, not to speak of what is inferior.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.29/en/bodhi

We are told that among the meditative absorptions, ākiñcaññāyatana & nevasaññānāsaññāyatana were foremost. This shows that A) the annihilationist doctrine is best of all of the positions outside of the Dhamma and B) The state of ākiñcaññāyatana & nevasaññānāsaññāyatana are the highest attainments outside of nibbāna. This suggests that the 2 are linked, with ākiñcaññāyatana & nevasaññānāsaññāyatana being the peak of accomplishment among annihilationists. We actually see this link explicitly in MN 106:
“Ānanda, take a mendicant who practices like this: ‘It might not be, and it might not be mine. It will not be, and it will not be mine. I am giving up what exists, what has come to be.’ In this way they gain equanimity. They approve, welcome, and keep clinging to that equanimity. Their consciousness relies on that and grasps it. A mendicant with grasping does not become extinguished.”

“But sir, what is that mendicant grasping?”

“The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.”
In turn, of course, this means Āḷāra Kālāma & Uddaka Rāmaputta were teaching a form of annihilationism, and so the Buddha began his career as an annihilationist. He may very well have never stopped being one of sorts, until his awakening. Perhaps he finally understood that it was his aversion to existence that was, in the end, keeping him tethered to it?
When he said this, Venerable Ānanda said to the Buddha: “Sir, take a mendicant who practices like this: ‘It might not be, and it might not be mine. It will not be, and it will not be mine. I am giving up what exists, what has come to be.’ In this way they gain equanimity. Would that mendicant become extinguished or not?”

“One such mendicant might become extinguished, Ānanda, while another might not.”

“What is the cause, sir, what is the reason for this?”

“Ānanda, take a mendicant who practices like this: ‘It might not be, and it might not be mine. It will not be, and it will not be mine. I am giving up what exists, what has come to be.’ In this way they gain equanimity. They approve, welcome, and keep clinging to that equanimity. Their consciousness relies on that and grasps it. A mendicant with grasping does not become extinguished.”

“But sir, what is that mendicant grasping?”

“The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.”

“Sir, it seems that mendicant is grasping the best thing to grasp!”

“Indeed, Ānanda. For the best thing to grasp is the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

Take a mendicant who practices like this: ‘It might not be, and it might not be mine. It will not be, and it will not be mine. I am giving up what exists, what has come to be.’ In this way they gain equanimity. They don’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging to that equanimity. So their consciousness doesn’t rely on that and grasp it. A mendicant free of grasping becomes extinguished.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn106/en/sujato

Regarding the likes of Ajita Kesakambali, can we really say he was a materialist when the mahābhūta are more akin to abstract qualities rather than crude matter? Ajita probably meditated. Given his doctrine it is possible he relied upon ākāsānañcāyatana and could go no further, so we see another possible connection there. Perhaps still, we might muse, that the formless attainments were the method of choice for annihilationists whilst the Jhānā were favoured by eternalists? The Buddha then possibly incorporated both, not just because both were useful, but also as a means to show that he had mastered both the eternalist and annihilationist attainments yet knew of something that was higher still.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
sphairos
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Re: Jhana

Post by sphairos »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:10 pm
sphairos wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:14 pm
There is DN 1, and there are other suttas.
Indeed there are other suttas:

...
I will reply in detail in your thread about this subject in "early buddhism" when I have some time.

In general, thanks for pointing out this connection between the formless ones and annihilationism, it's interesting.

Two short points: 1) four elements is ancient materialism, ancient Greek thinkers (materialists) at the very same time taught the very same thing in the same words (and some of them even non-existence of the self, like modern eliminative materialists), and ancient Chinese ones a little later. And "matter" is also an abstract concept.

2) In the formless ones the mind (nāma etc.) is still present, and in a more intense way. If you reach "endless mind" or "endless space", you just feel that everything is a mind-made reality. Imagine yourself in this realm... Even in nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ there is still mind, something mental, and, possibly even in nirodha (the nature of nirodha is absolutely unclear, I think). Don't you think that rejoicing in and clinging to the blissful mind-reality isn't the base for eternalism, rather than annihilationism? It doesn't make sense if one enjoys pure mind reality and suddenly becomes an "annihilationist". I don't think it would be logical for those adepts to seek the annihilation in the pure eternal mind-reality...
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Re: Jhana

Post by pitithefool »

DN 1

“With regard to this, the Tathāgata discerns that ‘These standpoints, thus seized, thus grasped at, lead to such & such a destination, to such & such a state in the world beyond.’ That the Tathāgata discerns. And he discerns what is higher than that. And yet, discerning that, he does not grasp at it. And as he is not grasping at it, unbinding [nibbuti] is experienced right within. Knowing, as they have come to be, the origination, ending, allure, & drawbacks of feelings, along with the escape from feelings, the Tathāgata, monks—through lack of clinging/sustenance—is released."

The jhanas, and the formless attainments are not the basis of nihilism or eternalism.

Rather, wrong view is the basis of nihilism and eternalism.

Go practice!
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Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

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Dearest sphairos, you wrote to Ceisiwr
I will reply in detail in your thread about this subject in "early buddhism" when I have some time.
Thanks for respecting the OP. This thread is for anyone who wants to discuss the 4 jhanas, and the Noble 8-fold path, this includes conditioned origination. Path is intended to remove factors that bring about suffering
  • Ceisiwr this thread is not appropriate for discussing annihilation.
stuff such as
'I would not be, neither would there be what is mine. I will not be, neither will there be what is mine.'
But if you want to discuss the manner in which Buddha turned it upside down... which I have discussed before on this thread, you are welcome to do so.
  • Buddha's innovation leads to the end of suffering.
Any discussion that pertains to annihilation does not belong in the 8-fold path. I hope you understand that. It is not nice to derail a thread. Your question on Samiddhi elsewhere, would be very be very appropriate here, if you want to drag that here.
Your query there "Why do the Pali and Chinese versions come across as very different to the
reader? In fact Doo Doot responded there, it is because Nama-and rupa are interpreted in different ways in the two versions.
Even though I wrote there that it is not ...I think DD had a point. The point is the Pali suttas, or their commentaries present nama not as designation or denomination, but as vedana, sanna, manasikara etc.
This is a major SNAFU, which misleads the Theravadin. It is important to get the beginning right where suffering is concerned.
  • If you get Nama-rupa wrong, you don't have a chance of understanding DO.

It is a very serious issue. If you read the foot notes to the first Samyutta of Connected discourses, BB points to the errors found in Sinahalese commentaries, the carelessness of the translators, etc. If you have a hard copy of Connected Discourses, pl. take a look. It is well worth the time.
I have found errors in Pali versions, compared to Chinese versions, esp in connection with Nama-rupa definition.
What might be the reason? I can only speculate. Scholars have pointed out, that the Pali did not have a tradition of meditation, whereas the Chinese did. I remember Ven. Sujatho confirming this, on Sutta Central. In order to understand Nama-rupa clearly one has to have a sound grounding in samma sati and samma samadhi. This does not mean Pali made errors everywhere. Samyuttas in Salayatana, Sacca etc are amazing, clarifying and enriching.
It is only when one approaches suttas regarding DO, that one has to be cautious. That applies to Samiddhi sutta too that you brought up. Devata samyutta is also an introduction to Dependent Origination, if you pay attention to the trends there.
With love :candle:
PS I want to take this opportunity to thank DNS, for giving us a platform to express our ideas, and to the dear person who wrote on DW, in the year 2017
So the discourses are really secret teachings, but if you look closely you can see the secrets.
I find this to be true, and poetic. In my own exploration into the world of nikayas I find "The truth is all there," even though if you are not careful, some trends might mislead, and move you away from what is important soteriologically.
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar brings argument that the ayatane(formless attainments) are not part of the noble 8 fold path.
But is it actually so simple, just derive it from the glossary that there is no formless mentioned?

ariyo ñāyo - noble cycle - dependent origination sn 12.42
'to end the cycle(ñāyo) of suffering' is the 8 fold path reference sn 47.43 (idea gotten from NYANATILOKA MAHATHERA[name copied from dictonary.sutta.org])
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.43/en/sujato wrote: As I was in private retreat this thought came to mind:Tassa mayhaṃ, bhikkhave, rahogatassa paṭisallīnassa evaṃ cetaso parivitakko udapādi:
‘The four kinds of mindfulness meditation are the path to convergence.
They are in order to purify sentient beings, to get past sorrow and crying, to make an end of pain and sadness, to end the cycle of suffering, and to realize extinguishment.’
‘ekāyanvāyaṃ maggo sattānaṃ visuddhiyā sokaparidevānaṃ samatikkamāya dukkhadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamāya ñāyassa adhigamāya nibbānassa sacchikiriyāya, yadidaṃ—cattāro satipaṭṭhānā.
Why formless is not included in samadhi-fold is because samadhi is about developing mind, satipatthana, to become enlightened in this life. It would be categorical error to include something what is not subject to rebirth(unconditional) under what is still subject to rebirth, rembember that ideally one becomes enlightened in this life.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana

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pitithefool wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:08 pm DN 1

“With regard to this, the Tathāgata discerns that ‘These standpoints, thus seized, thus grasped at, lead to such & such a destination, to such & such a state in the world beyond.’ That the Tathāgata discerns. And he discerns what is higher than that. And yet, discerning that, he does not grasp at it. And as he is not grasping at it, unbinding [nibbuti] is experienced right within. Knowing, as they have come to be, the origination, ending, allure, & drawbacks of feelings, along with the escape from feelings, the Tathāgata, monks—through lack of clinging/sustenance—is released."

The jhanas, and the formless attainments are not the basis of nihilism or eternalism.

Rather, wrong view is the basis of nihilism and eternalism.

Go practice!
The basis for views is actually induction and synthetic a priori.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana

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Pulsar wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:13 pm
Ceisiwr this thread is not appropriate for discussing annihilation.
It is in in relation to the formless, which in turn is related to Jhāna.
The point is the Pali suttas, or their commentaries present nama not as designation or denomination, but as vedana, sanna, manasikara etc.
Well this just isn't true. Designation contact is taught as an aspect of nāmarūpa in DN 15 (parallel MĀ 97). Vedanā, sañña and cetanā are an essential part of designation contact. In other words, what makes designation contact possible. Sañña itself has less to do with "perception" and more to do with designating, as per the suttas. This is why it is part of "name".
It is important to get the beginning right where suffering is concerned.
Indeed.
If you get Nama-rupa wrong, you don't have a chance of understanding DO.
Yes.
It is a very serious issue. If you read the foot notes to the first Samyutta of Connected discourses, BB points to the errors found in Sinahalese commentaries, the carelessness of the translators, etc. If you have a hard copy of Connected Discourses, pl. take a look. It is well worth the time
All the commentaries could be dead wrong about absolutely everything and my points so far would stand, since I am basing them on the suttas & agamas and not on the commentaries.
I have found errors in Pali versions, compared to Chinese versions, esp in connection with Nama-rupa definition.
What might be the reason? I can only speculate. Scholars have pointed out, that the Pali did not have a tradition of meditation, whereas the Chinese did. I remember Ven. Sujatho confirming this, on Sutta Central. In order to understand Nama-rupa clearly one has to have a sound grounding in samma sati and samma samadhi. This does not mean Pali made errors everywhere. Samyuttas in Salayatana, Sacca etc are amazing, clarifying and enriching.
It is only when one approaches suttas regarding DO, that one has to be cautious. That applies to Samiddhi sutta too that you brought up. Devata samyutta is also an introduction to Dependent Origination, if you pay attention to the trends there.
What "errors"? If you are referring to the classification of consciousness under nama in some agamas, i would have thought it rather obvious that this is likely a back reading of the Abhidharma into the texts rather than a radical new definition of the Buddha lost to the Pāli.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Jhana

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sphairos wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:57 pm
In general, thanks for pointing out this connection between the formless ones and annihilationism, it's interesting.
You are welcome.
Two short points: 1) four elements is ancient materialism, ancient Greek thinkers (materialists) at the very same time taught the very same thing in the same words (and some of them even non-existence of the self, like modern eliminative materialists), and ancient Chinese ones a little later. And "matter" is also an abstract concept.
Its been an age since I read ancient greek philosophy, but my understanding is that we only get to materialism when we get to the atomists. That is a very different thing. The mahābhūta are more ethereal and phenomenal. "Hardness" is a quality, not matter. You also forget that consciousness is classed as an element, which also indicates that we are not dealing with a materialist philosophy here.
2) In the formless ones the mind (nāma etc.) is still present, and in a more intense way. If you reach "endless mind" or "endless space", you just feel that everything is a mind-made reality.
Indeed. Followers of Uddaka Rāmaputta would have criticised Āḷāra Kālāma because "There is Nothing" is still something:
"Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘Sense objects in this life and in lives to come, sensual conceptions in this life and in lives to come, form in this life and in lives to come, concepts of forms in this life and in lives to come, and concepts of the imperturbable, and concepts of the dimension of nothingness; all are concepts. Where they cease without anything left over, that is peaceful, that is sublime, namely the dimension of neither conceptualisation nor non- conceptualisation.’ Practicing in this way and meditating on it often their mind becomes confident in this dimension. Being confident, they either attain the dimension of neither conceptualisation nor non- conceptualisation now or are freed by wisdom. When their body breaks up, after death, it’s possible that the consciousness headed that way will be reborn in the dimension of neither conceptualisation nor non- conceptualisation. This is said to be the way of practice suitable for attaining the dimension of neither conceptualisation nor non- conceptualisation.”
MN 106

The same with those who practiced infinite space, or consciousness. It is all a way of emptying oneself of existence, of annihilating it.

Imagine yourself in this realm... Even in nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ there is still mind, something mental, and, possibly even in nirodha (the nature of nirodha is absolutely unclear, I think). Don't you think that rejoicing in and clinging to the blissful mind-reality isn't the base for eternalism, rather than annihilationism? It doesn't make sense if one enjoys pure mind reality and suddenly becomes an "annihilationist". I don't think it would be logical for those adepts to seek the annihilation in the pure eternal mind-reality...
We are told in the suttas that some ascetics did cling to these attainments as being some kind of eternal self, it seems, but these appear to be deviations from the standard mean. The nature of the formless attainments themselves is a deconstruction of existence, not a building up of it. The Jhānā are somewhat different and seem to have been preferred by eternalists. Indeed, DN 1 has all eternalist theories stemming from remembrance of past lives (save for the rationalist position). Since past life remembrance is tied to the Jhānā and since no annihilationist seems to have any memory of past lives, and since annihilationists are always paired with the formless and the majority of eternalists (bar the rationalists) with Jhāna then it seems we have two schools of thought with two different mediation practices, deviations notwithstanding. This would also lend support to the idea that the Jhānā are not required to enter the formless attainments, much less their mastery.
From the perspective of attempting to find a deeper meaning and a broader scope of implication for the term vibhava-tanhā, the final four grounds for annihilationist views listed in the Brahmajāla-sutta are intriguing. They suggest that nonexistence or non-becoming may have been envisioned as a goal to be reached through meditation practice in ancient India, in particular through attaining any of the immaterial spheres.

Since the experience of these immaterial spheres requires a considerable amount of meditative proficiency and practice, an annihilationist view related to the attainment or experience of these states could not reasonably assume that all beings are destined to such annihilation. That is, from the perspective of the upholders of such a view, annihilation would probably not have been considered as the inevitable fate of all beings, but rather as a goal to be attained through an appropriate form of conduct and meditation practice.

The idea behind such an aspiration for annihilation could be a merger with a form of ultimate reality, held to be equivalent to boundless space, or to boundless consciousness, or to no-thingness, or to neither-perception-nor-non-perception. Attaining such a merger at the death of the body, any self-hood would be successfully annihilated.
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... raving.pdf

It seems Ven. Anālayo and I share similar conclusions.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Jhana

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The situation of those who uphold annihilationism is quite vividly depicted in the Pañcattaya-sutta, which compares their predicament to a dog that is bound to a pillar and keeps running in circles around this pillar (MN II 232). The point of this image is that, in spite of being motivated by disenchantment with personal existence, sakkāya, annihilationism is unable to go beyond the inherent sense of identity. Instead, the annihilationists keep on running, as it were, in circles around the same personal existence they try to abandon. In whatever way such Brahmins and recluses may proclaim vibhava to be the escape from bhava, they will be unable to escape from existence (Ud 33). Only by leaving behind concern with vibhava and with bhava can future becoming be transcended, vibhavañca bhavañca vippahāya ... khīnapunabbhavo (Sn 514)
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... raving.pdf

It seems the only fault of Āḷāra Kālāma & Uddaka Rāmaputta was in not realising that their craving for non-existence was part of the problem. Perhaps a matter of being so, so close yet so far. Sadly they were unable to make the final shift from:

"May I not be, may it not be for me, I shall not be and it will not be for me"

To

"May it not be, may it not be for me, it shall not be, and it will not be for me"

But the Buddha did. With this new understanding, beings could now make the final leap from nevasaññānāsaññāyatana to nirodha-samāpatti.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Jhana

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Looking at the Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta we perhaps can see a hint as to why awakening can be accomplished without the formless attainments. It seems that by reaching the 4th Jhāna and contemplating dependent origination, impermanence, dukkha and not-self one realises that to then incline one's mind to the formless as an escape, to annihilate, is itself a formation thus initiating liberation:
“Then there remains only equanimity, purified and bright, malleable, wieldy, and radiant [4th Jhāna]. Suppose, bhikkhu, a skilled goldsmith or his apprentice were to prepare a furnace, heat up the crucible, take some gold with tongs, and put it into the crucible. From time to time he would blow on it, from time to time he would sprinkle water over it, and from time to time he would just look on. That gold would become refined, well refined, completely refined, faultless, rid of dross, malleable, wieldy, and radiant. Then whatever kind of ornament he wished to make from it, whether a golden chain or earrings or a necklace or a golden garland, it would serve his purpose. So too, bhikkhu, then there remains only equanimity, purified and bright, malleable, wieldy, and radiant.

“He understands thus: ‘If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite space and to develop my mind accordingly, then this equanimity of mine, supported by that base, clinging to it, would remain for a very long time. If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite consciousness……to the base of nothingness…to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception and to develop my mind accordingly, then this equanimity of mine, supported by that base, clinging to it, would remain for a very long time.’

“He understands thus: ‘If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite space and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned. If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite consciousness…to the base of nothingness…to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned.’ He does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being. Since he does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being, he does not cling to anything in this world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands thus: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi

Notice here that to direct one's mind towards the formless is equated with directing it to non-being? He understands that even to want non-existence is to tether oneself to existence, and so he lets go of both existence and non-existence (of self). Of course, this doesn't mean that they cannot be used. Someone can realise that sense experience and the objects therein are anicca, dukkha and anatta and so enter into the formless to escape it. Via this route they then become liberated via nirodha-samāpatti.
3. Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘Sense objects in this life and in lives to come, sensual conceptions in this life and in lives to come, form in this life and in lives to come, concepts of forms in this life and in lives to come; all of these are impermanent. And what’s impermanent is not worth approving, welcoming, or clinging to.’ Practicing in this way and meditating on it often their mind becomes confident in this dimension. Being confident, they either attain the imperturbable now, or are freed by wisdom. When their body breaks up, after death, it’s possible that the consciousness headed that way will be reborn in the imperturbable. This is said to be the third way of practice suitable for attaining the imperturbable.

Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘I don’t belong to anyone anywhere! And nothing belongs to me anywhere!’ Practicing in this way and meditating on it often their mind becomes confident in this dimension. Being confident, they either attain the dimension of nothingness now, or are freed by wisdom. When their body breaks up, after death, it’s possible that the consciousness headed that way will be reborn in the dimension of nothingness. This is said to be the third way of practice suitable for attaining the dimension of nothingness.

Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘Sense objects in this life and in lives to come, sensual conceptions in this life and in lives to come, form in this life and in lives to come, concepts of forms in this life and in lives to come, and concepts of the imperturbable, and concepts of the dimension of nothingness; all are concepts. Where they cease without anything left over, that is peaceful, that is sublime, namely the dimension of neither-conceptualisation-nor-non-conceptualisation.’ Practicing in this way and meditating on it often their mind becomes confident in this dimension. Being confident, they either attain the dimension of neither conceptualisation nor non- conceptualisation now or are freed by wisdom. When their body breaks up, after death, it’s possible that the consciousness headed that way will be reborn in the dimension of neither conceptualisation nor non- conceptualisation. This is said to be the way of practice suitable for attaining the dimension of neither-conceptualisation-nor-non-conceptualisation.”
MN 106

Which is simply a longer road, but still a valid one. Perhaps then the Jhānā are not required to enter the formless attainments, as suggested by various suttas, but are required for awakening. Awakening then can sometimes occur with the formless, or without.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

All in all, I think the annihilationists were a lot more sophisticated than what we give them credit for. The Buddha also seems to have been one, to begin with. Their practices were then retained by the Buddha, post his awakening, as a valid option for some who are practicing the NEFP and can very possibly be attained without Jhānā. Personally these recent insights have added a new dimension to my meditation practice, and the practice of the Dhamma in general.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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pitithefool
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Re: Jhana

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:48 pm
This is great :popcorn:

I have no intention of organizing any of this into coherence, but here are some views that have come to my attention over the years:

1. Jhana is not necessary for Nibbana, only discernment.
2. Jhana is necessary but not formless attainments.
3. Specifically, the fourth jhana is necessary, but not the formless attainments.
4. Jhana AND the formless attainments are necessary and the formless attainments are to be grouped with the process of destroying the asavas (specifically the asava of becoming) often paired with the stock description of three or six higher knowledges at the completion of training.
5. Formless attainment can be had without jhana.

I particularly favor numbers 4 and 5, and here's why:

It makes sense from an experiential point of view. If we want to actually abandon sensuality, then it makes sense to develop jhana. In setting up the conditions for jhana, guarding the senses, practicing moderation in eating, practicing perceptions of impermanence to develop dispassion and devotion to wakefulness are just some of the things that perform the task of both separating from sensuality and moving towards jhana as a replacement, just like a smoker might chew on a sucker instead of having a cigarette. From there, once an appropriate amount of concentration is gained and pleasure and pain are abandoned, one can direct the mind to the states of being associated with annihilation and abandon those as well. In the smoker analogy this would be like getting rid of the suckers once one no longer craves cigarettes.

I particularly like you're point, Ceisiwr, that the annihilationist practicioners seemed to favor formless meditation and the eternalists seemed to favor jhana, because this gives us a full spectrum of direct, first hand experience of all the modes of being and thus all the modes of craving, clinging, becoming and birth. We thus run the entire gamut of experience and, having seen it first hand, we can thus abandon it.

The reason I like number five is because the formless attainments can definitely be had without jhana, but jhana provides a firm base for them to be stable and useful and are a good precedent. The chronological order of passing through the states of being would then pass through a logical order of refinement that also cuts desire and craving for the less refined states as they progress.

Hopefully any of this would be useful :anjali:
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Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

My apologies to the readers for a thread gone awry. The OP has framed the topic of discussion around
the Tenfold path, MN 117 with emphasis on 4 buddhist jhanas.
If anyone is here who does not understand these two, pl. remove yourselves.
The 4 Arupa samapathis are never called jhanas in the Nikayas. But some folks here are determined to drag in Arupas, to the point of calling Buddha an annihilationist, which I find sad, It is a reflection of their own ignorance and not Buddha's ignorance. 
But people come up with their own novel interpretations.

I did not have to go far to find a definition for this kind of behaviour. 
Nearly ten years ago pink_trike wrote:
  • In our "all you can eat" time the Dharma teachings
    are widely regarded as a pig regards the trough...
    everyone is free to snout through them looking for morsels that feed their unique hungers regardless of their temperament, awareness, ability, or previous training or lack thereof.
Each one tries to feed their unique hunger,
  • a hunger for annihilation
  • a hunger for Arupas that Buddha rejected,
  • a hunger for Nibbana that exists
the list goes on. Each one believes that Buddha agrees with them.
Again I apologise, for a thread gone awry. But hopefully soon this too shall come to pass, the Founder's message.
Regards :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:28 am
But some folks here are determined to drag in Arupas, to the point of calling Buddha an annihilationist, which I find sad, It is a reflection of their own ignorance and not Buddha's ignorance.
No one said that.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Ceisiwr now you are in the denial mode.
No one said that.
Ceisiwr is no one?
Who wrote on this thread
All in all, I think the annihilationists were a lot more sophisticated than what we give them
credit for. The Buddha also seems to have been one, to begin with. Their practices were then retained by the Buddha, post his awakening, as a valid option for some who are practicing the NEFP and can very possibly be attained without Jhānā.
You are definitely implying
  • The Buddha also seems to have been one (one meaning annihilationist), to begin with
and also you are implying
  • Their practices were then retained by the Buddha (meaning annihilationist practices) post his awakening, as a valid option for some who are practicing the NEFP and can very possibly be attained without Jhānā.
That is very cute, total speculation, right? Papanca in other words, which Buddha was totally against.

You are basically accusing Buddha of replacing samma samadhi (4 buddhist jhanas, which was his own means of awakening executed via Right view etc) with Saint Alara Kalama's and Saint Uddaka Ramaputtha's methods of Arupa samapatthis. Who needs Christians, jews, islamists when buddhists themselves are doing it to themselves, digging their own graves.
I think I am done with you. You neither understand the 8-fold path, nor the relevance of four buddhist jhanas in doing away with Nama-rupa.
Pl stay away until you get a firm handle on these things.
Don't let me repeat pink_trike. Pl begin your own thread on your recent awakenings/insights. You wrote
Personally these recent insights have added a new dimension to my meditation practice, and the practice of the Dhamma in general.
It is bound to be a hit, preferably under the Personal Experience Forum
Best on a Friday morning :candle:
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