Jhana
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6512
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: Jhana
Just a reminder of the thread's topic:
Anyone wishing to discuss jhāna in relation to Hindu methods are invited to start a new thread in Connections to other Paths.Pulsar wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:12 am Jhana as a tool of ekayana, some sweep jhana aside as too difficult, and use negative terms such as 'jhana clingers', for those who practice this path of ekayana.
But the 4 rupa jhanas, when rightly practiced, constitute the 8th factor of noble Path. If one rejects these, by calling these special attainments, is it not a rejection of the noble Path?
I find it more difficult to maintain right speech at all times, as indicated in MN 117, I falter more there, than with my practice of jhana. How about yours?
Which attainment do you find easier? We all know that if we abstain from either of these, we are also not following the Noble Path. I like to hear from those that do not reject MN 117, because for me this is the one sutta that expounds the Noble Path to its end, defining each factor with great clarity, starting from right view, ending with right knowledge and right liberation. Again what is easier for you? Right speech or right concentration?
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Jhana
Rev Dhammanando wrote
With love
Thank you for reposting the OP, and reminding the readers the intention of this thread.Anyone wishing to discuss jhāna in relation to Hindu methods are invited to start a new thread in Connections to other Paths.
With love
Re: Jhana
dealing with jhana the right way, with "The right view" Four budddhist jhanas are not a mode that manifests in a retreat if one does not generally lead a life of sila, samadhi, panna."One of right view, one of right view"
Jhana does not manifest explosively.
Overzealous poets might describe it as an explosion of sorts, and the naive people may take these literally, and spread fake stories on the internet, regarding the 8-fold path.
- Path is to be savored in small sips, thoughtfully, mindfully.
- "she/he who applies herself/himself to that to which she/he should apply self, her/he alone do i call a Learner"
- like the wearing away of the Adze handle. SN 22.101.
These are clear as the light of day. Why do we need interpreters to translate for us what the Buddha taught?
- To one who leads a life of sila, samadhi and panna, Buddha of the canon shines through day and night.
Time spent with Maha Kaccana is time well spent.
With love
Re: Jhana
samadhi is precursor, entrance.. for sabbe dhamma,Pulsar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:04 pmThe 'ship' is a beautiful metaphor on wearing away of the fetters that bind one to the sensual world.Suppose there was a sea-faring ship bound together with ropes.
For six months they deteriorated in the water. Then in the cold season it was hauled up on dry land,
where the ropes were weathered by wind and sun.
When the clouds soaked it with rain, the ropes would readily collapse and rot away.
In the same way, when a mendicant is committed to development their fetters readily collapse and rot away.”
One engaged in 4th jhana is far away from the sensory world.
mukhahttps://suttacentral.net/an10.58/en/sujato wrote: Immersion is their chief samādhippamukhā sabbe dhammā
dhamma is within the all(sense organs and their objects) albeit the mind and its object.https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/m/mukha/ wrote:Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
mukha:[nt.] mouth; face; entrance; opening; front.(adj.),foremost.
if you think there is something beyond the all you'll become frustrated,
Maybe you want clearly tell what you mean by 4th jhana not being sensory? I get where i was wrong, that it is not 5 senses - but it still is within the all. So i found a mistake on my own and with the help of this community. What i previously wrote could have been sounded painful due not having discernment yet on this important matter.https://suttacentral.net/sn35.23/en/sujato wrote:Mendicants, suppose someone was to say: ‘I’ll reject this all and describe another all.’ They’d have no grounds for that, they’d be stumped by questions, and, in addition, they’d get frustrated. Why is that? Because they’re out of their element.”
Re: Jhana
Sutta on Right view presents Right view in a variety of ways."One of right view, one of right view"
Firstly Right view is spoken of as having a firm understanding of "The good the bad and the ugly" or
knowing that Kamma has repercussions, which directs us towards the importance of mindfulness."The wholesome and unwholesome"
The mindful person does not generate kamma. SN 12.61 "Monkey simile" tells us
It does not say that the untrained mind is as restless as a monkey. A point to ponder."mind is dependent on an object".
- Purpose of meditation is to do away with this reliance on an object.
- Ceto Vimutti?
Loving kindness, comes to our aid here, practised first as a householder (does not mean layman) then practised as a renunciate, MN 137. Exposition of the Sixfold Base
Metta sutta begins with
Sutta ends with, if you act according to the instructions of the sutta "you will not be subject to birth".Skilled in good, wishing to attain a state of calm,
so should one behave, able, upright, perfectly upright,
open-minded, gentle, free from pride.
Sutta MN 9 writes
'When a person abandons all potential trends of greed and worry, removes the potential trend of disgust and worry & eradicates the potential of "I am" perception, he abandons ignorance'
These are references to 4th jhana. Every factor of Right view ends with these phrases, emphasizing the radical need for Removal of underlying tendency (or the kammic consciousness). The last two steps of the 8-fold path target the abolishing of underlying tendency."He gives birth to lucidity and ceases the suffering of life. He entirely abandons the underlying tendency"
"Is jhana necessary for liberation?" If it is not, why does Sutta on Right View insist sixteen times the necessity of abolishing underlying tendency.
Right View encompasses the entire path. Path has to be negotiated gently, with an attitude of loving kindness, to oneself the most, understanding the treacherousness of the uphill climb, or the challenges of going against the stream.
SN 35.244 writes
Life is thorny.Suppose a man would enter a thorny forest,
There would be thorns in front of him, thorns behind him, thorns to his left etc.
He would go forward mindfully, he would go back mindfully,
thinking "May no thorns prick me!"
So too bhikkhus, whatever in the world has a pleasing and agreeable nature
is called a thorn in the Noble One's discipline.
Having understood this thus as 'a thorn'
one should understand restraint and non restraint.
What is it like to be in the 4th establishment of mindfulness or the 4th buddhist jhana?
There are many ways of describing these,
one way would be: Sensual passion does not lie latent within him/her, in regard to sensual pleasures.
It is a mode of conduct and manner of dwelling in such a way that as s/he conducts herself thus and as s/he dwells thus, unwholesome states and displeasure do not flow upon her.
With love
Re: Jhana
I read in a buddhist scripture, it is poetry like the gently rising sun, a thought, and I racked my brain, where did I read this? in a more prosaic form.There is the emptiness of the enjoyer,
emptiness of the enjoyed,
Emptiness of the body
Empty village/vipers/murderers come to my mind SN 35. 238. Asivisisopamasutta. It brings in a string of powerful similes, to teach of the startling dangers of existence,
with means of escape strung at the end. A modified excerpt of its similes.
The teacher says
Now this can be interpreted in two ways. It can mean the physical body made up of 4 elements."I have made up this simile, bhikkhus, in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning,
The four vipers of fierce heat and deadly venom:
This is the designation for the 4 great elements, earth, water, heat and air.
Body will have issues whenever any of the elements act up. i.e. if air is exhausted, body dies,
air can be a poisonous snake killing us, by its lack or excess.
Or it can be viewed in the sense of DO, as the rupa that arises in the mind when the mind is not engaged in mindful states. (4th establishment of mindfulness or 4th Jhana)
When craving gains a footing, a form appears due to craving and begins the nama-rupa cycling.
The five murderous enemies:
The sixth murderer: the intimate companion with a drawn sword.This is a designation for the five aggregates subject to clinging.
Delight and lust are compared to a murderer.This is a designation for Delight and Lust.
The empty village:
Village attacking dacoits:This is a designation for the six internal sense bases. If a wise person examines them by way of eye etc, they appear to be void, hollow, empty.
The great Expanse of water:This is a designation for the six external sense bases, the seen, heard, sensed, cognized. These six bases are attacked by the agreeable and disagreeable.
The Near Shore:is a designation for the four floods,
1.The flood of sensuality;
2.The flood of existence;
3.The flood of views;
4.The flood of ignorance.
The Further shore:which is dangerous and fearful: designation for Identity.
The Raft:safe and free is a designation for nibbana.
8-fold path/ten-fold path
Making efforts with Hands and feet:
Crossed Over:this is a designation for the arousing of energy
A sutta that comes to mind when i contemplate on the emptiness of life.designates the Arahant.
With love on the 1st of April in the year '21
Re: Jhana
The sutta talks about Four kinds of persons:
The 1st gains internal serenity of mind but not higher wisdom into phenomena.
2nd gains higher wisdom into phenomena but not internal serenity.
3rd Gains both; 4th Gains neither.
Examining the sutta: What is the higher wisdom required, how should it be gained?
Sutta writes:
and then got off the bullet train, and then got on to the next topic. It is all talk, but insight requires practice of Mindfulness in a dependently originated way. So just talking is not Dhamma.
That would belong to the category of mental proliferation which is Adhamma.
True Dhamma is to explore these events with each breath, after the talk.
shouldn't we unravel the steps of dependent origination? Some bail out, because some think DO has nothing to do with meditation.
The process of inquiry or
Disputing existence vs non-existence, self vs not self are pointless. One who is familiar with SN 12.15 knows that Buddha left these behind. Summarizing that sutta
1. Determination or will; 2. Viriya (endlessly exerted effort); 3. Samadhi (buddhist jhanas); 4. Inquiry. What was Buddha reflecting on the wee hours of morning, of a full moon of May?.
What is the Internal Serenity referred to in the Second Factor of the sutta?
It is the steadying, composing, unifying, and concentrating by way of first jhana,
so too in the second, so too in the third, so too in the 4th. When Samadhi is perfected and form disappears,
For the Buddha this stage was merely a misstep on the way, similar to the missteps of extreme asceticism.
In the formlessness of 4th jhana,
When name and form arise not,
With love
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN4_94.html
The 1st gains internal serenity of mind but not higher wisdom into phenomena.
2nd gains higher wisdom into phenomena but not internal serenity.
3rd Gains both; 4th Gains neither.
Examining the sutta: What is the higher wisdom required, how should it be gained?
Sutta writes:
- Conditioned phenomena should be seen in such a way,
explored in such a way, discerned by insight in such a way, then some time later,
s/he gains both internal serenity of mind and higher wisdom of insight into
phenomena/experience of dhammas.
In our busy entangled lives, these are often spoken of rapidly at the speed of a bullet train,explorations into "Not-self" "absence of stability" and "absence of peace".
and then got off the bullet train, and then got on to the next topic. It is all talk, but insight requires practice of Mindfulness in a dependently originated way. So just talking is not Dhamma.
That would belong to the category of mental proliferation which is Adhamma.
True Dhamma is to explore these events with each breath, after the talk.
- When using breath how do events of "Not-self" unravel?
Instead of mouthing "Anicca, dukkha, Anatta" and stepping over another hurdle,"How should conditioned phenomena be discerned by insight?"
shouldn't we unravel the steps of dependent origination? Some bail out, because some think DO has nothing to do with meditation.
The process of inquiry or
is the essential next step to Mindfulness which is theDhamma Vicaya
or Awakening factors.first step in the seven Bojjhangas,
Disputing existence vs non-existence, self vs not self are pointless. One who is familiar with SN 12.15 knows that Buddha left these behind. Summarizing that sutta
One who wants to leave suffering behind examines cryptic statements like Iddhipada etc, what makes up Iddhipada?"Problem with the world is either they are hung up on self or not self"
1. Determination or will; 2. Viriya (endlessly exerted effort); 3. Samadhi (buddhist jhanas); 4. Inquiry. What was Buddha reflecting on the wee hours of morning, of a full moon of May?.
What is the Internal Serenity referred to in the Second Factor of the sutta?
It is the steadying, composing, unifying, and concentrating by way of first jhana,
so too in the second, so too in the third, so too in the 4th. When Samadhi is perfected and form disappears,
- it is the formlessness according to SammaSambuddha,
For the Buddha this stage was merely a misstep on the way, similar to the missteps of extreme asceticism.
In the formlessness of 4th jhana,
- manifoldness, proliferation, abhisankharoti, chopping of thought comes to a resounding stop.
When name and form arise not,
- where is the lodging for worldly consciousness?
- This is the magic of formlessness of 4th buddhist jhana.
With love
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN4_94.html
Re: Jhana
Once there was a fine person called Vinasp on DW, some called him Vincent, I mistakenly called him Visigoth on a comment in the study group. My apologies to Visigoth.
But there is no mistaking about some of the comments Vinasp made. He never mentioned 4 buddhist jhanas. Unlike some folks who endlessly speculate about buddhist jhana, and get it wrong, Vinasp who never speculated about such, appeared to have glimpsed 4th buddhist jhana.
One time there was a question on why there is no sutta that explains awakening? It is because they cannot explain what awakening actually is, Vinasp wrote. Below is his
detailed answer.
All aggregates disappear on awakening, i agree, but to the puthujjana who lives trapped within the sense bases, this is an impossibility. S/he is locked within dependent origination. Thus we have these endless debates on Dhamma chat groups, that go around in circles.
One example I can think of: there was a post that asked this question...
Awakening does not interfere with these.
Some speak of the Arahant as if s/he is trapped within the sense bases. But s/he is not, Suttas say Arahant has gone beyond the sense bases.
If so, what contact can there be for him/her, in a soteriological sense in a Dependently originated
manner? Many fail to realize that in DO the contact is made only with a form projected in the mind. Arahant is not engaged in nama-rupa formation, what contact can there be if there is no form to contact?
I was inspired to write this comment by a conversation happening elsewhere on DW, where the OP claimed he understood Dependent Origination, but some others did not.
My feeling was that he did not understand DO like our Dear Vinasp did.
I am forever inspired by some of the things that vinasp said on DW. That i can meet him on a later date like this i am thankful to DNS and others who make such insightful interactions possible,
that in our awkward thinking, we are not alone in this world.
With love
But there is no mistaking about some of the comments Vinasp made. He never mentioned 4 buddhist jhanas. Unlike some folks who endlessly speculate about buddhist jhana, and get it wrong, Vinasp who never speculated about such, appeared to have glimpsed 4th buddhist jhana.
One time there was a question on why there is no sutta that explains awakening? It is because they cannot explain what awakening actually is, Vinasp wrote. Below is his
detailed answer.
How then, can they explain exactly what ceases at awakening? wrote Vinasp, also he said people come up with cumbersome answers that one cannot understand easily.Why can they not explain this? Because the worldling has a completely different understanding of awakening to that of a noble disciple.For a worldling the awakened Arahant has not yet escaped samsara, that will be when he dies.
- This is the Nibbana / Parinibbana problem.
But the noble disciple knows that samsara ends with awakening.
The noble disciple understands that samsara is the ongoing process of constructing the aggregates, so when that process ends so does samsara.
But the worldling, who takes the form aggregate as being actual form, has to project its cessation into the future.
All aggregates disappear on awakening, i agree, but to the puthujjana who lives trapped within the sense bases, this is an impossibility. S/he is locked within dependent origination. Thus we have these endless debates on Dhamma chat groups, that go around in circles.
One example I can think of: there was a post that asked this question...
The one who understood awakening, knows there is no objectification for an Arahant.What is your understanding of phassa ( contact ), and what do you think the cessation of phassa entails, practically speaking?
"The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling..."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
- The subject "I" has vanished, how then can there be an object?
Awakening does not interfere with these.
Some speak of the Arahant as if s/he is trapped within the sense bases. But s/he is not, Suttas say Arahant has gone beyond the sense bases.
If so, what contact can there be for him/her, in a soteriological sense in a Dependently originated
manner? Many fail to realize that in DO the contact is made only with a form projected in the mind. Arahant is not engaged in nama-rupa formation, what contact can there be if there is no form to contact?
I was inspired to write this comment by a conversation happening elsewhere on DW, where the OP claimed he understood Dependent Origination, but some others did not.
My feeling was that he did not understand DO like our Dear Vinasp did.
I am forever inspired by some of the things that vinasp said on DW. That i can meet him on a later date like this i am thankful to DNS and others who make such insightful interactions possible,
that in our awkward thinking, we are not alone in this world.
With love
Re: Jhana
Considering the form aggregate includes any object of the 6 senses, and seeing as how the Buddha and Arahants still walk around talking and eating, this does not seem likely. The aggregates still exist and function after awakening. They only cease without remainder at the end of life. Namarupa still functions and so there is still contact, given there is attention to the senses.Pulsar wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:35 pm All aggregates disappear on awakening, i agree, but to the puthujjana who lives trapped within the sense bases, this is an impossibility. S/he is locked within dependent origination. Thus we have these endless debates on Dhamma chat groups, that go around in circles.
One example I can think of: there was a post that asked this question...
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Jhana
Dearest Ceisiwr: You wrote
aggregate?
Once a Buddha or Arahant awakens (Nibbanize), do they have to wait until the end of life to
end suffering? What does Buddha's awakening mean to you?
What do you mean by "functioning of Namarupa?" An earthworm has a mentality and a
materiality i.e. namarupa, but Buddha did not teach Dependent Origination to
earthworms.
With love
OK, let us see whether we are on the same page, what is your definition of the wordThe aggregates still exist and function after awakening.
They only cease without remainder at the end of life.
Namarupa still functions and so there is still contact, given there is attention to the senses.
aggregate?
Once a Buddha or Arahant awakens (Nibbanize), do they have to wait until the end of life to
end suffering? What does Buddha's awakening mean to you?
What do you mean by "functioning of Namarupa?" An earthworm has a mentality and a
materiality i.e. namarupa, but Buddha did not teach Dependent Origination to
earthworms.
With love
Re: Jhana
Sariputta is very much on my mind. It is a beautiful morning, very peaceful, and I remembered the following from the Vinaya Pitaka.
Buddha refers to a
To me it implies that they had destroyed their attachments.
If so, who could they be but Arahants?
by the time they met the Buddha. Buddha himself says so?.
Principle of dependent origination, is all they had been privy to.
Now lets us leave the Vinaya Pitaka behind and visit the Sutta Pitaka.
What does it say about the enlightenment of Sariputta?
It presents us with MN 111, which clearly appears to be a work of an Abhidhammika, trying hard to push Arupa
samapatthis down the reader's throat.
Does anyone else think Sariputta became an Arahant twice?
We also have another curious sutta in the canon. It is called
sorry i forgot the 'h'. there is an 'h' before the last letter a.
Sutta writes while Buddha was addressing Dighanaka, Sariputta was standing behind the Blessed One, fanning him and listening in on the conversation.
Sariputta's mind was liberated from the taints, during that listening.
Sariputta was liberated thrice??? Let us investigate what is going on.
MN 111 is missing from the Agama version of Middle length.
Clearly, MN 111 was born after sectarianism. But what about MN 74? we do find a parallel there, but the location of the sutta is all over the map.
The discourse parallels are SĀ 969 at T II 249a-250a and SĀ2 203 at T II 449a-b. While MN 74 takes place at Mount Vulture Peak near Rājagaha, SĀ 969 and SĀ2 203 have the Squirrel’s Feeding Ground near the same Rājagaha as their location.
The Pali version takes place on Boar's cave on the mountain Vulture Peak. See how interesting things get when one tries to find out the truth in these instances?
I don't care about the details really.
I am convinced Buddha is telling the truth in the Vinaya Pitaka.
If so, in MN 111 and MN 74 it is not Buddha who is lying.
I recall Vinasp saying on DW "some suttas are false, and some are correct"
Some folks got upset at him. At first i did not believe Vinaps either. Now i have no choice but to believe him.
Have a fun day, i enjoy reading the suttas, because aside from the abhidhammikas that made up suttas that really did not happen,
many compilers told the truth also, thank heavens!
Clearly Buddha shines through the canon, only if you are smart enough to recognize the truth from the lie, like Vinasp did. Those who are not smart believe the lies. That probably is why there is so much arguments on Dhamma chat groups.
I wish vinasp could hear me, since only he will believe the things i write.
With love
then the teacher explained about them in the Bamboo grove.The Lord saw Sariputta and Moggallana coming in the distance;
seeing them, he addressed the monks saying,
- When in the deep sphere of knowledge, they had attained the matchless freedom in which there is destruction of attachments,
Now an eminent scholar calls the first phraseMonks, these two friends, Kolita and Upatissa are coming. This pair of disciples will be my chief, my eminnet pair.
- an extraordinary grammatical construction.
Buddha refers to a
- "A matchless freedom".
- "destruction of attachments"
To me it implies that they had destroyed their attachments.
If so, who could they be but Arahants?
by the time they met the Buddha. Buddha himself says so?.
Principle of dependent origination, is all they had been privy to.
Now lets us leave the Vinaya Pitaka behind and visit the Sutta Pitaka.
What does it say about the enlightenment of Sariputta?
It presents us with MN 111, which clearly appears to be a work of an Abhidhammika, trying hard to push Arupa
samapatthis down the reader's throat.
Does anyone else think Sariputta became an Arahant twice?
We also have another curious sutta in the canon. It is called
MN 74,To Dighanaka
sorry i forgot the 'h'. there is an 'h' before the last letter a.
Sutta writes while Buddha was addressing Dighanaka, Sariputta was standing behind the Blessed One, fanning him and listening in on the conversation.
Sariputta's mind was liberated from the taints, during that listening.
Sariputta was liberated thrice??? Let us investigate what is going on.
MN 111 is missing from the Agama version of Middle length.
Clearly, MN 111 was born after sectarianism. But what about MN 74? we do find a parallel there, but the location of the sutta is all over the map.
The discourse parallels are SĀ 969 at T II 249a-250a and SĀ2 203 at T II 449a-b. While MN 74 takes place at Mount Vulture Peak near Rājagaha, SĀ 969 and SĀ2 203 have the Squirrel’s Feeding Ground near the same Rājagaha as their location.
The Pali version takes place on Boar's cave on the mountain Vulture Peak. See how interesting things get when one tries to find out the truth in these instances?
I don't care about the details really.
I am convinced Buddha is telling the truth in the Vinaya Pitaka.
If so, in MN 111 and MN 74 it is not Buddha who is lying.
I recall Vinasp saying on DW "some suttas are false, and some are correct"
Some folks got upset at him. At first i did not believe Vinaps either. Now i have no choice but to believe him.
Have a fun day, i enjoy reading the suttas, because aside from the abhidhammikas that made up suttas that really did not happen,
many compilers told the truth also, thank heavens!
Clearly Buddha shines through the canon, only if you are smart enough to recognize the truth from the lie, like Vinasp did. Those who are not smart believe the lies. That probably is why there is so much arguments on Dhamma chat groups.
I wish vinasp could hear me, since only he will believe the things i write.
With love
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6512
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: Jhana
Unfortunately the eminent scholar (I.B. Horner) misunderstood the construction and mistranslated accordingly.
The Pali reads:
gambhīre ñāṇavisaye,
anuttare upadhisaṅkhaye;
vimutte appatte veḷuvanaṁ,
atha ne satthā byākāsi.
Note in particular that veḷuvanaṁ (Bamboo Grove) is in the accusative case, not the locative, and that appatte means "had NOT attained (or reached)", not "had attained". Taken together the two words relate to the two monks' non-arrival in the Bamboo Grove, not to any supposed attainment by them of "matchless freedom".
The new translation by Ven. Brahmali gets it about right:
https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd1/en/brahmaliThey had not even reached the Bamboo Grove,
Yet had a profound range of knowledge,
About the supreme end of ownership, about freedom.
The Teacher explained about them:
So when the passage is correctly translated it doesn't contradict the traditional understanding that at this point the two monks are still sekhas.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Jhana
Dearest Ven. Dhammanando: Thank you for the response. Does Ven. Brahmali disagree with Horner's entire translation?
To bring in the background to the Mahavagga story,
Horner writes that the two friends Kolita and Upatissa... had reached an agreement
Sariputta responds
Bahia reached enlightenment by hearing just four lines of Dhamma. Is the Pali canon telling
us that Sariputta was incapable of achieving the deathless on hearing of Dependent
origination?
Elsewhere DN 15 tells us that Ven Ananda was incapable of understanding Dependent Origination.
Do you believe that?
The sutta compilers interpret DO in different ways. In the early suttas DO does not function as an abstract theory of causation. Rather it focusses on the way human suffering is produced and the manner by which it is terminated.
How do you understand Dependent Origination?
Does Ven Brahmali think that Sariputta attained liberation as described in MN 111?
With love
PS the link you gave to sutta central did not work for me.
To bring in the background to the Mahavagga story,
Horner writes that the two friends Kolita and Upatissa... had reached an agreement
In the interim Ven. Assaji enters Rajagaha for his almsfood. He has a pleasing demeanor. Sariputta asks"whoever attains the deathless first, let him announce it"
He is told"On account of whom are you, your reverence, gone forth, or who is your teacher, or whose dhamma do you profess?"
Sariputta hears this, ..this section is a bit unclear, it has some footnotes that helps in clarification."Those things which proceed from a cause, of these the truth finder has told the cause, and that which is their stopping- the great recluse has such a doctrine"
on hearing this,"whoever is of the nature to uprise, all that is of the nature to stop"
Sariputta responds
Later Moggallana inquires of him."If this is indeed dhamma, you have penetrated as far as the sorrowless path, unseen for many myriads of aeons"
Sariputta replies"friend can it be that you, friend have attained the deathless?"
This is how I understood Horner's translation."Yes friend, I have attained the deathless"
Bahia reached enlightenment by hearing just four lines of Dhamma. Is the Pali canon telling
us that Sariputta was incapable of achieving the deathless on hearing of Dependent
origination?
Elsewhere DN 15 tells us that Ven Ananda was incapable of understanding Dependent Origination.
Do you believe that?
The sutta compilers interpret DO in different ways. In the early suttas DO does not function as an abstract theory of causation. Rather it focusses on the way human suffering is produced and the manner by which it is terminated.
How do you understand Dependent Origination?
Does Ven Brahmali think that Sariputta attained liberation as described in MN 111?
With love
PS the link you gave to sutta central did not work for me.
- Dhammanando
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Re: Jhana
Though I haven't undertaken a line-by-line comparison of the two translations, I think it's exceedingly unlikely that he would disagree with Horner's entire translation. Though Horner makes plenty of mistakes in Book of the Discipline, what she gets right greatly exceeds what she gets wrong.
As the link didn't work for you, here is Ven. Brahmali's translation in full:
The account of the going forth of Sāriputta and Moggallāna
At that time the wanderer Sañcaya was staying at Rājagaha with a large group of two hundred and fifty wanderers, including Sāriputta and Moggallāna. The two of them had made an agreement that whoever reached the deathless first would inform the other.
Just then, Venerable Assaji robed up in the morning, took his bowl and robe, and entered Rājagaha for almsfood. He inspired confidence in the way he entered and returned, in his looking at and looking away, in his drawing in and stretching out of his arms; his eyes were lowered, and he was perfect in deportment. The wanderer Sāriputta observed all this and thought, “This monk is among those in the world who are perfected or on the path to perfection. Let me approach him and ask him who he has gone forth under, who his teacher is, and whose teachings he follows.” But it occurred to him, “It’s the wrong time to ask him while he’s walking for almsfood among the houses. Let me follow behind him, for one who seeks the path will find it.”
After walking for almsfood in Rājagaha, Assaji took his almsfood and turned back. Sāriputta then approached him and exchanged pleasantries with him. And he asked, “Venerable, your faculties are clear and your skin is pure and bright. Who have you gone forth under? Who is your teacher or whose teaching do you follow?”
“There’s a great ascetic, a Sakyan who has gone forth from the Sakyan clan. I’ve gone forth under him, he’s my teacher, and I follow his teaching.”
“But what does your teacher teach?”
“I’ve only recently gone forth and so I’m new to this spiritual path. I’m not capable of giving you the Teaching in full, but I can tell you the meaning in brief.”
Sāriputta replied, “Yes, please,” and he added:
“Speak little or much,
But do tell me the meaning.
I just want the meaning,
For what’s the point of a detailed exposition?”
And Assaji gave this teaching to the wanderer Sāriputta:
“Of causally arisen things,
The Buddha has declared their cause,
As well as their ending.
This is the teaching of the Great Ascetic.”
When he had heard this teaching, Sāriputta experienced the stainless vision of the Truth: “Anything that has a beginning has an end.”
“Now this is the truth, even just this,
The sorrowless state that you have penetrated,
Which has been unseen and neglected
Through innumerable eons.”
Then the wanderer Sāriputta went to the wanderer Moggallāna. When Moggallāna saw him coming, he said to Sāriputta, “Your faculties are clear and your skin is pure and bright. You haven’t attained the deathless, have you?”
“Yes, I have.”
“But how did it happen?”
And Sāriputta told him everything up to and including the teaching given by Assaji.
When he had heard this teaching, Moggallāna experienced the stainless vision of the Truth: “Anything that has a beginning has an end.”
“Now this is the truth, even just this,
The sorrowless state that you have penetrated,
Which has been unseen and neglected
Through innumerable eons.”
And Moggallāna said to Sāriputta, “Let’s go to the Buddha; he’s our teacher.”
“But these two hundred and fifty wanderers look to us for support. We must tell them first. They can then act as they think appropriate.” And they went to those wanderers and said, “We’re going to the Buddha; he’s our teacher.”
“But we look to you for support. If you are to practice the spiritual life under the Great Ascetic, so will all of us.”
Then Sāriputta and Moggallāna went to Sañcaya and said, “We’re going to the Buddha; he’s our teacher.”
“Don’t go. Let the three of us look after this community together.”
Sāriputta and Moggallāna said the same thing a second time and a third time, and they got the same reply. They then took those two hundred and fifty wanderers and went to the Bamboo Grove. But the wanderer Sañcaya vomited warm blood right there.
When the Buddha saw Sāriputta and Moggallāna coming, he said to the monks, “The two friends Kolita and Upatissa are coming. They will be my most eminent disciples, an excellent pair.”
They had not even reached the Bamboo Grove,
Yet had a profound range of knowledge,
About the supreme end of ownership, about freedom.
The Teacher explained about them:
“These two friends are coming,
Kolita and Upatissa.
They will be an excellent pair,
My most eminent disciples.”
Sāriputta and Moggallāna approached the Buddha, bowed down with their heads at the Buddha’s feet, and said, “Venerable Sir, we wish to receive the going forth in your presence; we wish to receive the full ordination.” The Buddha said, “Come, monks. The Teaching is well-proclaimed. Practice the spiritual life to make a complete end of suffering.” And that was the full ordination of those venerables.
The going forth of those who were well-known
At that time many well-known Magadhans from good families were practicing the spiritual life under the Buddha. People complained and criticized him, “The ascetic Gotama is making us childless and he’s making widows out of us; he’s breaking up good families. Right now a thousand dreadlocked ascetics have gone forth because of him, and also these two hundred and fifty wanderers who were disciples of Sañcaya. All these well-known Magadhans from good families are practicing the spiritual life under the ascetic Gotama.” And when they saw monks, they confronted them with this verse:
“The Great Ascetic has arrived
At Giribbaja in Magadha.
After leading away all of Sañcaya’s disciples,
Who will he lead away next?”
The monks heard the complaints of those people and they told the Buddha what had happened. Soon afterwards he had the Sangha gathered and said, “The complaining will soon stop; it will only last seven days. And when people confront you like this, you can confront them in return with this verse:
ʻIndeed, the Great Heroes, the Buddhas,
Lead by means of a good teaching.
When you understand this, what indignation can there be
Toward those who lead legitimately?’”
Soon, when they had seen monks, people confronted them with this verse:
“The Great Ascetic has arrived
At Giribbaja in Magadha.
After leading away all of Sañcaya’s disciples,
Who will he lead away next?”
And the monks confronted them in return with this verse:
“Indeed, the Great Heroes, the Buddhas,
Lead by means of a good teaching.
When you understand this, what indignation can there be
Toward those who lead legitimately?”
People thought, “So it seems the Sakyan ascetics lead legitimately, not illegitimately.” And the complaining lasted seven days, and then it stopped.
The account of the going forth of Sāriputta and Moggallāna is finished.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)