Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Pulsar
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

A small mass of iron sinks; a similar amount, fashioned into a bowl floats, its heaviness
set off by the new found lightness. There are similes of this nature in the canon,
a small amount of salt, in a cup of water, salty stuff! a teaspoon mixed in a bowl of 100,0000 liters, saltless, seemingly!  
Some bring an end to suffering, A saint causes suffering to not arise, even though seemingly the saint resides in Samsara. Nagarjuna apparently said "Samsara is Nibbana" also according to him every concept was an illusion, a bit of a contradiction right there, ain't it?
Revisiting this, in the conventional tongue, why can't it be true in the right context?
For the saint, it makes no difference, whether it is samsara or nibbana.

But before Nagarjuna said that, it was in the Upanisads? or was it after? Those who want to be sure,  may read Maryla Falk "Nama Rupa" freely found on the web. Upanisadic nirvana, is not the same as Buddhist nibbana, however.
Quite a bit of stuff seemingly leaked into the Pali canon, from the "Daily Hindu". Some of us consider Upanisads etc as non-buddhist, including those marks of a great man, again read M. folk, details details.
Some buddhists love to say 'we have mastered the four samapatthis' stacked above the 4 buddhist jhanas, but that is not quite buddhist, Is it?
Is that right concentration?  This anomaly is not limited to the Theravada Commentaries only.  Buddhaghosa reportedly was fond of Yogacara. Yogacara admittedly has the right concentration plus these 4 Samapatthis of hinduistic origin.
There was plenty of exchange between these two traditions.  All buddhistic stuff grew on Upanisadic soil over time. Some of these Hindu philosophers could outsmart the buddhists of the day, simply because the true Buddhist was not into philosophy, he/she would rather retreat into the meditative life, meanwhile the Hindus borrowed and made more appealing stories out of the borrowed stuff.
So called Arupa Samapathis was prevalent among meditators before Buddha's time.
Was Buddha happy and content with these?
No he walked away from these, proclaiming  these would only lead to Brahma worlds.
His goal was not Brahma worlds, but just the
extinction of suffering
Would it not be a contradiction,  if he later packed so called Arupa samapathis atop the four buddhist jhanas that was clearly sufficient to wipe out all suffering?
Why would he distract his followers by inserting a bunch of Arupa samapatthis atop Buddhistic right concentration and cessation? DN 2 Samannaphala sutta.
Yogacarins promoted something that Buddha did not teach, and it enabled Mahayanists to pack a Bodhisattva into the story line, by inserting him as a permanent resident of the last Arupa samapatthi.
He lives forever there, since he has to wait until all exit Samsara.
A very convenient story.  But here is the twist, that Bodhisatta although he is born a numberless times, does not suffer, since he resides in the last Arupa samapatthi. Those who dwell in Arupa Samapathis dwell in Bliss? 
This Bodhisattva is only a fairy tale, for the true follower of the Buddha.
The importance of right concentration, as presented in MN 117, needs to be repeatedly emphasized. Samma samadhi is the engagement in the four Buddhist jhanas via which Buddha found a means to end suffering. It is nothing more or nothing less.
With love :candle:
auto
Posts: 1917
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

things to consider,
https://suttacentral.net/ds2.3.2/en/caf_rhysdavids wrote: Which are the states that impinge?
The spheres of the senses and sense-objects.

Which are the states that are non-impingeing?
The four skandhas; that form also which, being neither visible nor impingeing, is included under [mental] states; also uncompounded element.

2.3.2.2.4. Sappaṭighaduka
Katame dhammā sappaṭighā? Cakkhāyatanaṃ … pe … phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṃ—ime dhammā sappaṭighā.

Katame dhammā appaṭighā? Vedanākkhandho … pe … viññāṇakkhandho, yañca rūpaṃ anidassanaṃ appaṭighaṃ dhammāyatanapariyāpannaṃ, asaṅkhatā ca dhātu—ime dhammā appaṭighā.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.117/en/sujato wrote:‘So you should understand that dimension where the eye ceases and perception of sights fades away. You should understand that dimension where the ear … nose … tongue … body …‘tasmātiha, bhikkhave, se āyatane veditabbe yattha cakkhu ca nirujjhati, rūpasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe … pe …mind ceases and perception of thoughts fades away.’yattha mano ca nirujjhati, dhammasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe’ti.

The Buddha was referring to the cessation of the six sense fields when he said:Saḷāyatananirodhaṃ no etaṃ, āvuso, bhagavatā sandhāya bhāsitaṃ:‘So you should understand that dimension where the eye ceases and perception of sights fades away. You should understand that dimension where the ear … nose … tongue … body …‘tasmātiha, bhikkhave, se āyatane veditabbe, yattha cakkhu ca nirujjhati, rūpasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe … pe …mind ceases and perception of thoughts fades away.’yattha mano ca nirujjhati, dhammasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe’ti.
..
https://suttacentral.net/an8.66/en/sujato wrote: They’re focused only on beauty.Subhanteva adhimutto hoti.This is the third liberation.Ayaṃ tatiyo vimokkho. (3)

Going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, they enter and remain in the dimension of infinite space.
Sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati.
This is the fourth liberation.Ayaṃ catuttho vimokkho. (4)
beauty is form. Likewise long, short, fine, coarse are rupa.
https://suttacentral.net/dn11/en/sujato wrote: Here’s where water and earth,Ettha āpo ca pathavī,
fire and air find no footing;tejo vāyo na gādhati.

here’s where long and short,Ettha dīghañca rassañca,
fine and coarse, beautiful and ugly;aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
here’s where name and formEttha nāmañca rūpañca,
cease with nothing left over—asesaṃ uparujjhati;
‘Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, is a dimension where six sense fields have ceased, domain of no visible forms.
Pulsar wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:09 pm Samma samadhi is the engagement in the four Buddhist jhanas via which Buddha found a means to end suffering. It is nothing more or nothing less.
the 4 jhanas are for to get to the 4 other khandhas. 4 jhanas deals with the 1st khandha what is subject to impingement.
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.23/en/sujato wrote: Those who have discardedYesaṃ rāgo ca doso ca,
greed, hate, and ignorance—avijjā ca virājitā;
the perfected ones with defilements ended—Khīṇāsavā arahanto,
they have untangled the tangle.tesaṃ vijaṭitā jaṭā.

And where name and formYattha nāmañca rūpañca,
cease with nothing left over;asesaṃ uparujjhati;
as well as impingement and perception of form:Paṭighaṃ rūpasaññā ca,
it’s there that the tangle is cut.”etthesā chijjate jaṭā”ti.
greed, hate and ignorance are the impingement.
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/p/pa%E1%B9%ADigha wrote: Paṭigha,(m.& nt.) [paṭi+gha,adj.suffix of ghan=han,lit.striking against] 1.(ethically) repulsion,repugnance,anger D.I,25,34; III,254,282; S.I,13; IV,71,195,205,208 sq.; V,315; A.I,3,87,200; Sn.371,536; Dhs.1060; Miln.44; DA.I,22.-- 2.(psychologically) sensory reaction
its a mess of quotes. But how in a logical sense you can just refuse to see how it potentially will make perfect sense and the notion of fabrication of Suttas is most likely thoughts based on lack of understanding.

also is cessation of suffering equal to awakening to the bodhi?
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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:09 pm A small mass of iron sinks; a similar amount, fashioned into a bowl floats, its heaviness
set off by the new found lightness. There are similes of this nature in the canon,
a small amount of salt, in a cup of water, salty stuff! a teaspoon mixed in a bowl of 100,0000 liters, saltless, seemingly!  
Some bring an end to suffering, A saint causes suffering to not arise, even though seemingly the saint resides in Samsara. Nagarjuna apparently said "Samsara is Nibbana" also according to him every concept was an illusion, a bit of a contradiction right there, ain't it?
Revisiting this, in the conventional tongue, why can't it be true in the right context?
For the saint, it makes no difference, whether it is samsara or nibbana.

But before Nagarjuna said that, it was in the Upanisads? or was it after? Those who want to be sure,  may read Maryla Falk "Nama Rupa" freely found on the web. Upanisadic nirvana, is not the same as Buddhist nibbana, however.
Quite a bit of stuff seemingly leaked into the Pali canon, from the "Daily Hindu". Some of us consider Upanisads etc as non-buddhist, including those marks of a great man, again read M. folk, details details.
Some buddhists love to say 'we have mastered the four samapatthis' stacked above the 4 buddhist jhanas, but that is not quite buddhist, Is it?
Is that right concentration?  This anomaly is not limited to the Theravada Commentaries only.  Buddhaghosa reportedly was fond of Yogacara. Yogacara admittedly has the right concentration plus these 4 Samapatthis of hinduistic origin.
There was plenty of exchange between these two traditions.  All buddhistic stuff grew on Upanisadic soil over time. Some of these Hindu philosophers could outsmart the buddhists of the day, simply because the true Buddhist was not into philosophy, he/she would rather retreat into the meditative life, meanwhile the Hindus borrowed and made more appealing stories out of the borrowed stuff.
So called Arupa Samapathis was prevalent among meditators before Buddha's time.
Was Buddha happy and content with these?
No he walked away from these, proclaiming  these would only lead to Brahma worlds.
His goal was not Brahma worlds, but just the
extinction of suffering
Would it not be a contradiction,  if he later packed so called Arupa samapathis atop the four buddhist jhanas that was clearly sufficient to wipe out all suffering?
Why would he distract his followers by inserting a bunch of Arupa samapatthis atop Buddhistic right concentration and cessation? DN 2 Samannaphala sutta.
Yogacarins promoted something that Buddha did not teach, and it enabled Mahayanists to pack a Bodhisattva into the story line, by inserting him as a permanent resident of the last Arupa samapatthi.
He lives forever there, since he has to wait until all exit Samsara.
A very convenient story.  But here is the twist, that Bodhisatta although he is born a numberless times, does not suffer, since he resides in the last Arupa samapatthi. Those who dwell in Arupa Samapathis dwell in Bliss? 
This Bodhisattva is only a fairy tale, for the true follower of the Buddha.
The importance of right concentration, as presented in MN 117, needs to be repeatedly emphasized. Samma samadhi is the engagement in the four Buddhist jhanas via which Buddha found a means to end suffering. It is nothing more or nothing less.
With love :candle:
because samsara and nirvana is just the way u perceive. if u understand 3 nature of things.. same thing but u see differently with lack of clining so both are present in same and everywhere
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Auto asked
also is cessation of suffering equal to awakening to the bodhi?
For the Ariyans who have entered blissful Nibbana, all mental proliferation cease,  
like regal swans in the sky hovering without any support.
They need no Arupa samapathhis borrowed from "Daily Hindu News" to get there, to hold them up. 
They hover in a wind created by their two wings, the wing of accumulated virtue,
and the wing of accumulated wisdom. 
Cruising in the wind of void, ultimate samadhi. They have reached there without elaborate hinduistic rituals or so called Arupa samapatthis. This is the awakening, end of all papanca, cessation of all thought of non-existence, and existence. Some call that end of dukkkha, end of upadana khanda, end of phenomenal life.
For those with Samhkya or other hindusitic leanings that kind of nibbana, is an impossibility, so why waste time in argument? You have your own version of nirvana, union with Brahma. Yet you inspire me Dear Auto, once you said it works very well for you. To each his own.
Excerpts from AN 11.10 Sandha sutta.
And how is a thoroughbred absorbed? An excellent thoroughbred horse tied to the feeding trough, is not absorbed with the thought, 'Barley grain! Barley grain!' Why is that? Because as he is tied to the feeding trough, the thought occurs to him, 'I wonder what task the trainer will have me do today? What should I do in response?' Tied to the feeding trough, he is not absorbed with the thought, 'Barley grain! Barley grain!' The excellent thoroughbred horse regards the feel of the spur as a debt, an imprisonment, a loss, a piece of bad luck
In the same way, an excellent thoroughbred of a man, ....dwells with his awareness not overcome by sensual passion, not obsessed with sensual passion."He dwells with his awareness not overcome by ill will... sloth & drowsiness... restlessness & anxiety... uncertainty, obsessed with uncertainty. He discerns the escape, as it actually is present, from uncertainty once it has arisen
He is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, .... nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed
And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar.
PS
These Arupa samapatthis, an infinitude of space or consciousnesss etc are like barley grains to the person engaged in right Samadhi, a piece of bad luck
I wish you good luck.  The first part of AN 11.10 clarifies the post script, it is about the stupid meditator, who engages in Four so called Arupa samapatthis. Stupid horse is only a simile, it is to be inferred.
Be well my dear Auto. :candle:
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:20 pm ..
4 jhanas(meditations) are this
https://suttacentral.net/sn45.2/en/sujato wrote: seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go
vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodhanissitaṃ vossaggapariṇāmiṃ;
1. viveka, arising of pitisukha
2. virāga, fading of piti, dispassion
3. nirodha, mindfulness dependent on cessation
4. vossagga, surrender

these above are higher minds.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.89/en/sujato wrote: And what is the training in the higher mind?Katamā ca, bhikkhave, adhicittasikkhā?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption … second absorption … third absorption … fourth absorption.Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi … pe … catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
meditation(jhana) and getting higher step by step till max(4) is attained, which is letting go, relinquishing, and that just denotes you have mastered one fold of a 8 fold path and it also seem to be just bigger aspect of the same, getting wisdom, while wisdom also is the reason you can start 8 fold path,
https://suttacentral.net/sn45.1/en/sujato wrote: Knowledge precedes the attainment of skillful qualities, with conscience and prudence following along.Vijjā ca kho, bhikkhave, pubbaṅgamā kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ samāpattiyā, anvadeva hirottappaṃ.A sage, firm in knowledge, gives rise to right view.Vijjāgatassa, bhikkhave, viddasuno sammādiṭṭhi pahoti;..
and prolly the 3rd meditation, nirodha is about perceptions dependent on 1-8(includes those infinite space..) meditations resulting in animitta cetosamdhi, or simply sati.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Auto your links to Sujato's website assert the importance of the 4 buddhist jhanas,
The first link SN 45.1 reads;
And how does a bhikkhu with good friends develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path?  It’s when he develops right view, which relies on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go. They develop right thought …  right speech …etc  ...right mindfulness …  right immersion, which relies on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go
Dear Auto what I have emphasized, all along is that  Samma Samadhi is the 4 buddhist jhanas.
Excerpt from your second link, AN 3.89 
And what is the training in the higher mind?  It’s when a bhikkhu, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption … second absorption … third absorption … fourth absorption.  This is called the training in the higher mind
The sutta stops right there, after the fourth absorption only ...no mention of Arupa samapatthis.
Your 3rd link to Sujato SN 45.1 reads
Mendicants, ignorance precedes the attainment of unskillful qualities, with lack of conscience and prudence following along.  An ignoramus, sunk in ignorance, gives rise to wrong view.  Wrong view gives rise to wrong thought.  Wrong thought gives rise to wrong speech.  Wrong speech gives rise to wrong action.  Wrong action gives rise to wrong livelihood.  Wrong livelihood gives rise to wrong effort.  Wrong effort gives rise to wrong mindfulness.  Wrong mindfulness gives rise to wrong immersion.
Surely you know what wrong immersion or wrong samadhi is. One can read MN 117 to learn about all the wrong things folks do of the tenfold-path, including wrong Samadhi.
Appreciate the links. These excerpts are plainly wonderful. I appreciate  Sujato's enormous sense of humor. You can get a taste of it on Youtube,  if you type in his name, there are 3 videos of his there, on Dependent Origination. He is really a cool dude of a monk, quite lovable, the way he simplifies stuff.
Thank you my dear Auto. :candle:
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:45 pm The sutta stops right there, after the fourth absorption only ...no mention of Arupa samapatthis.
you got to read what the 4 meditations contain and understand the meanings there and you can find its not just those typical jhana descriptions we saw in wikipedia.
if it would be so, then you would not need so many suttas if it would be just 1,2,3,4 their(1-4) contents can be expanded. In case of 3rd meditation of developing mindfulness and sampajanna you can find its contents elaborated on other Suttas in a different way.

you can do your typical 4 jhanas, but these short descriptions there written are loaded. If you follow these loaded terms and meanings you find more elaborated system.
--
educating yourself isn't harmful, and perhaps you can even make peace with hindus.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Auto wrote
educating yourself isn't harmful, and perhaps you can even make peace with hindus
thanks for "Educating Rita" fine movie that was.
Dear Prof. Auto, the resident expert! Pulsar never went to war with anyone, least of all hindus. Are you a hindu?
I love hindus, they try their best to educate others, even infused the Pali canon with their teachings, an uncommon generosity!
with love
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Confusedlayman wrote
because samsara and nirvana is just the way u perceive. if u understand 3 nature of things.. same thing but u see differently with lack of clining so both are present in same and everywhere
Dear Confused, Nagarjuna appears to say Nibbana is samsara but examined closely:
  • that which is appropriating or upadaya or dependent (Pratitya va), wander to and from its conditioned nature is declared to be Samsara; when not depending (aparatitya) or not appropriating (anupadaya) and is in its unconditioned nature is Nibbana.
And Nibbana, we get peeks into it, even as we are in these samsaric bodies, by engaging in the last phase of Satipatthana or in the buddhist jhanas.
To sum up Nagarjuna... 
There are two main features which distinguish the Madhyamika conception of nibbana from that of the Hinayanist.
  • Hinayanist considers certain defiled and conditioned dhammas (elements) to be ultimately real. According to him, Nibbana means a veritable change of the discrete dhammas, conditioned existences (samskrta dhamma) and defilements (klessa) into uconditioned  (asamkrta) and undefiled dhammas.
    The Madhyamika says that Nirvana does not mean a change in the objective order, the change is in only subjective, it is not the world that we have to change, but only ourselves. If the klesas (defilements) and the samskrta dharmas (conditioned existence)  were ultimately real, no power on earth could change them. The change is in our outlook, it is a psychological transformation, not an ontological one.
Dear Confused I will continue with this comment later,  a small sip at a time, we don't want to drown in truth, lest we become inebriated.
Thank you Dhamma wheel, its owner, and those who participate,
Pulsar cannot thank you enough? samsara is too short for that. :candle:
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:27 pm thanks for "Educating Rita" fine movie that was.
..
To keep things simple, jhana(1-4) is about psychological(mind's) reaction to sensory experiences.
“They speak of this thing called the ‘dimension of infinite space’.“‘Ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ, ākāsānañcāyatanan’ti vuccati.
What is the dimension of infinite space?Katamaṃ nu kho ākāsānañcāyatananti?
It occurred to me:Tassa mayhaṃ, āvuso, etadahosi:
‘It’s when a mendicant—going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity—aware that “space is infinite”, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space.
‘idha bhikkhu sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā ananto ākāsoti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati.
when that mind what reacts to sensory experience ceases, then as a fruit* of that mind cessation, one becomes aware of the element of space.
https://suttacentral.net/ds2.2.3/en/caf_rhysdavids wrote: What is that form which is the element of space?

That which is space and belongs to space, is sky and belongs to sky, is vacuum and belongs to vacuum, and is not in contact’ with the four Great Phenomena—this is that form which is the element of space.

Katamaṃ taṃ rūpaṃ ākāsadhātu? Yo ākāso ākāsagataṃ aghaṃ aghagataṃ vivaro vivaragataṃ asamphuṭṭhaṃ catūhi mahābhūtehi—idaṃ taṃ rūpaṃ ākāsadhātu.
consciousness what knows space..vivara- opening.

so the new super duper knowledge is vivara - opening. One becomes aware some sort of opening or space.
hmm actually ākāsānañcāyatana could be three things space, vacuum and opening. It just takes one of it and put it as a name of a state.

*fruit idea from this,
https://suttacentral.net/ds2.1.3/en/caf_rhysdavids wrote:When, that he may attain to the Formless heavens, he cultivates the way thereto, and so, by passing wholly beyond all consciousness of form, by the dying out of the consciousness of sensory reaction, by turning the attention from any consciousness of the manifold, he enters into and abides in that rapt meditation which is accompanied by the consciousness of a sphere of unbounded space
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Dear Auto: Thank you, for your research, have I not repeatedly said that for the discerning follower of Buddha Right Samadhi, means the 4 buddhist jhanas, not all those other additions and embellishments. This thread is about Right Samadhi as stated in MN 117. It is true that the Hindus brought us many gifts, including the 32 marks of a great man. Thanks, but Buddha needed no marks to illuminate the world.
It is true you guys sold the strange and weird so called Arupa samapatthis to the canon and Buddhaghosa and Vasubandu bought these, but I don't have to buy it, since Buddha said in Sandha sutta AN 11.10 only the stupid meditator spends time with these. Such people are bent on Brahma worlds, hence it is ideally suited for those, but why would I buy that?
I am not interested in Brahma worlds, no Sir!
With love :candle:
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:17 pm Dear Auto: Thank you, for your research, have I not repeatedly said that for the discerning follower of Buddha Right Samadhi, means the 4 buddhist jhanas, not all those other additions and embellishments. This thread is about Right Samadhi as stated in MN 117. It is true that the Hindus brought us many gifts, including the 32 marks of a great man. Thanks, but Buddha needed no marks to illuminate the world.
It is true you guys sold the strange and weird so called Arupa samapatthis to the canon and Buddhaghosa and Vasubandu bought these, but I don't have to buy it, since Buddha said in Sandha sutta AN 11.10 only the stupid meditator spends time with these. Such people are bent on Brahma worlds, hence it is ideally suited for those, but why would I buy that?
I am not interested in Brahma worlds, no Sir!
With love :candle:
None is stopping you from being a follower of the buddha (of a Pali Canon)

You don't have the right to disrespect those who practice yoga,
auto wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:55 pm ..quote from Maryla Falk book found in this post
in common self-conscious existence the potential all-consciousness lies asleep in the depths of human being, but it may be awakened in yoga - The place where both "purusas" unite is the heart; they have a path in common: it is the vein susumna leading upwards from the heart to the top of the skull. When their union takes place, self-consciousness disappears- there is no longer any distinction between the outer and the inner world..
..
But in a particular state of "knowledge", in the ecstatic unification of man's being in which the pranas become steady
and melt into one(in the later texts this state is called samadhi; similar wordings are already met with in the oldest
Upandishadic texts: cf. samastah samprasannah ChU VIII, 6, 3, hence samprasada = atman ibid. 3, 4 and 12,3;
the psychic exercise by which this unification is enacted in the waking condition - namely the discipline of yoga -
...
https://suttacentral.net/sn41.8/en/sujato wrote: “Householder, do you have faith in the ascetic Gotama’s claim that“saddahasi tvaṃ, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa—there is a state of immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected?”atthi avitakko avicāro samādhi, atthi vitakkavicārānaṃ nirodho”ti?

“Sir, in this case I don’t rely on faith in the Buddha’s claim that“Na khvāhaṃ ettha, bhante, bhagavato saddhāya gacchāmi.
there is a state of immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected.”Atthi avitakko avicāro samādhi, atthi vitakkavicārānaṃ nirodho”ti.
householder Citta don't have faith because he himself can do it.
“What do you think, sir?“Taṃ kiṃ maññasi, bhante,
Which is better—knowledge or faith?”katamaṃ nu kho paṇītataraṃ—ñāṇaṃ vā saddhā vā”ti?
“Knowledge is definitely better than faith, householder.”“Saddhāya kho, gahapati, ñāṇaṃyeva paṇītataran”ti.
also hmm what is vitakkavicara? you can see many different translations, so how can you claim you have achieved jhana? you have achieved jhana what is translated several times and is subject to fabrication Pali canon?
Pulsar
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Looks like OP's post addressing Four Buddhist Jhanas is starting to annoy you. Is it because it excludes your God Vishnu given "Arupa samapatthis'?
You must not worry, I still see many buddhists claim they meditate according to the Vishnu method, some even go to retreats to learn the method. I consider this "Stranger than fiction".
You wrote 
You don't have the right to disrespect those who practice yoga
I did not disrespect it more or less than the Tathagata did in AN 11.10 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
In Sanda Sutta Buddha called such practitioners stupid meditators, I merely repeated him, I follow in his footsteps. Some follow the Buddha without paying much attention to what he instructed. I try my best to pay attention and I discreetly avoid the Hinduistic rituals.
Pl arrange for your own Post.  Why bother with mine that only relates to Buddha's teachings. You can title your post  
How from Vishnu's brain Arupa samapatthis emerged
or you can call it "Eight-fold path is nonsense, since it does not include so called hinduistc Arupas" whatever pleases your fancy. 
I will not interfere with your god given freedom to express your thoughts.
As for Vitaka Vicara, I am way past various translations, to waste my time debating it.
It is to be practiced, not debated. 
Besides 2nd jhana onwards these are non issues. You wrote
so how can you claim you have achieved jhana
I have not claimed anything, you are the one with claims. Thanks for the failing grade on Buddhist Jhanas, I cheerfully accept it, since Prof Auto got his PhD in Hindustan, and it all relates to
Hinduism
With love :candle:
auto
Posts: 1917
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:04 pm I have not claimed anything, you are the one with claims. Thanks for the failing grade on Buddhist Jhanas, I cheerfully accept it, since Prof Auto got his PhD in Hindustan, and it all relates to
Hinduism
...
Pulsar wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:03 am Jhana is not like that, not even the first jhana. When you renounce the thinking and relax, either letting breath suffuse all cells of your body, or have the image of a pebble hitting the water and rippling through the water, at that point there are no hindrances in your mind, you'll get a short insight into how peaceful the first jhana is, one's thoughts are rested, nothing intervenes, except that ripple permeating the water. This could very easily happen to one while walking the silent woods, or to the artist entirely engaged in his task. I merely want to express the simplicity of jhana, without complicating it by using words like nimitta etc, because words like nimitta
and kasina frightened me once, not anymore. Now I think this stuff is so simple, one can develop an aptitude for it, and then take it from there. :candle:
PS In fact the canon emphasizes the simplicity of the first jhana, by pointing to the fact, that after all the hard work Buddha did, for many years, it is the simplicity of the first jhana, done as a 6 year old, that brought him to the practical uses of jhana
The things you say, if i follow it then will arose sensation in my body. It is asmr
in case of disgust arising when seeing my post then just treat like it is asmr and accept these sensations, since they come inside you. You can change yourself instead of trying to change the world or Suttas for the better version you like to see.
--
Meanwhile you are going out of your way to disrespect or use sarcasm, in that case one just can't accept sensations, there needs be counter. Counter for your badmouthing case is sad-mindedness.. a free trip to 3rd jhana.
Pulsar wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:12 am I find it more difficult to maintain right speech at all times, as indicated in MN 117, I falter more there, than with my practice of jhana. How about yours?
Pulsar
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Auto wrote
Pulsar wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:03 am
Jhana is not like that, not even the first jhana. When you renounce the thinking and relax, either letting breath suffuse all cells of your body, or have the image of a pebble hitting the water and rippling through the water, at that point there are no hindrances in your mind, you'll get a short insight into how peaceful the first jhana is, one's thoughts are rested, nothing intervenes, except that ripple permeating the water. This could very easily happen to one while walking the silent woods, or to the artist entirely engaged in his task. I merely want to express the simplicity of jhana, without complicating it by using words like nimitta etc, because words like nimitta
and kasina frightened me once, not anymore. Now I think this stuff is so simple, one can develop an aptitude for it, and then take it from there. :candle:
PS In fact the canon emphasizes the simplicity of the first jhana, by pointing to the fact, that after all the hard work Buddha did, for many years, it is the simplicity of the first jhana, done as a 6 year old, that brought him to the practical uses of jhana
I so love you for bringing this memory back, I should write more stuff like this, instead of engaging in senseless
conversation. The above comment was not a claim, just mere expression of an experience. I still remember the river that afternoon, and how the meaning of the Vitaka, Vicara sank into me, while watching the residual rain drops, impinging the skin of the river.
Vitaka Vicara
is about the vanishing of residual 'thought investigation' and 'thought deliberation'.
One is not actively chasing after thoughts, one is merely allowing the investigation and deliberation of Papanca to slowly die off, cutting off the supply of Oxygen to breathing thought. It is a metaphor.
Auto copied
Pulsar wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:12 am
I find it more difficult to maintain right speech at all times, as indicated in MN 117, I falter more there, than with my practice of jhana. How about yours?
Jeez....Auto you are one cool dude! using my comment of long ago, completely out of context. Heck of a smart guy/gal you are!
Happy Saturday, free of the ongoing Corona fears. :candle:
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