Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

For laundering a garment, splattered with mud, it needs a good soaking. Better if left soaked for a while, meditation is like this, mind engaged in the removal of defilements. In washing,  the greater stains are removed first, i.e. greater suffering of mind removed, first. 
Perhaps the methods for dry insight are like this. Allows a fair reduction of suffering,
but are you there?  Is that enough?
Susima sutta says it is not so, in this sutta, all those who became arahants agreed that they at least engaged in the first jhana. Thanissaro's comment on Susima Sutta https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN12_70.html
Synopsis of Translator's note: 
This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening without having practiced the jhanas, simply via dry insight. However  a close reading shows that the sutta does not assert this at all. The Arahants involved admit that they have not gained psychic powers due to attainment. They also did not practice the so called 'Arupa samapatthis' to gain arahantship. Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on Samma Samadhi, there's every reason to believe that the Arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening
Pulsar finds practice of the first jhana far more meditator friendly (user friendly) than the dry insight methods described in the commentaries.
Why not practice the right instructions for Four establishments of mindfulness found in the Satipatthana Samyutta, which facilitates the practice of buddhist jhana. When rightly understood the two sets of instructions run parallel to each other, and complement each other.
mikenz66 wrote
When you mention talks it would be helpful to give links, in case people want to follow them up
the reason I did not post a link is because I've read someone complain
people post videos, without explaining what is in the video
It is a 2-hour presentation, a lot of work to summarize the entire video.
If you go to Youtube and type in the key words
Bhante Sujato
you get a list of his talks. The satipatthana talks appear as the 3rd to the 4th or 5th in the list. I was referring to the first one.
The lockdown has enabled me to spend lots of time with Sujato. I find the talks he gave between the years 2008-2011, most disarming,
his own explorations, a freshness of expression, discovery of the words of Buddha by a young monk
a former guitar player, his various experiences of Thailand etc, one drifts into the world of the early years of Sujato. A fascinating experience, it becomes one's own.  He is indeed most gifted, Anthony Best, I think he is the best right now.
Thank you Mike for asking. Be well! :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

A beautiful presentation by Ven. Sujato! I know this thread is on jhana of ten-fold path as Buddha laid it for us. But everything in our lives is inter-related, the meditator is also aware of the environment more keenly.
Buddhist Jhana is not something like: one goes to a retreat, attains, gets a certificate, and return home to celebrate. As we develop first jhana in daily life, its effects are felt throughout the day remaining.
Buddhist jhana permeates through every waking moment, every thought, every word, every action, hence it has an impact on our environment.
We need to care for the earth we live on. Sujato in this video talks of Agganna sutta DN27, some might think it is fairy tale.
But craving is presented in a most tragical way in this sutta, if you you follow its drift, it shows how beings succumb to craving and become coarse thereby, a brilliant synopsis of the sutta.

Point of jhana is to reverse the process of craving, reverse the process of Paticca Samuppada. Sujato's "One Breath" made me more aware, of the environment, the 'one breath' that brings peace.
Be well! :candle:
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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:52 am A beautiful presentation by Ven. Sujato! I know this thread is on jhana of ten-fold path as Buddha laid it for us. But everything in our lives is inter-related, the meditator is also aware of the environment more keenly.
Buddhist Jhana is not something like: one goes to a retreat, attains, gets a certificate, and return home to celebrate. As we develop first jhana in daily life, its effects are felt throughout the day remaining.
Buddhist jhana permeates through every waking moment, every thought, every word, every action, hence it has an impact on our environment.
We need to care for the earth we live on. Sujato in this video talks of Agganna sutta DN27, some might think it is fairy tale.
But craving is presented in a most tragical way in this sutta, if you you follow its drift, it shows how beings succumb to craving and become coarse thereby, a brilliant synopsis of the sutta.

Point of jhana is to reverse the process of craving, reverse the process of Paticca Samuppada. Sujato's "One Breath" made me more aware, of the environment, the 'one breath' that brings peace.
Be well! :candle:
Jhana cant be felt all day unless memory of it is re-accesed by thinking of the past expeirnece of jhana previous night or whenever he did.

To expeirence jhana condition, different conciousness arise based on cause and condition and conditions the present moment (jhana states) and when out of jhana those conciousness move and new conciousness not related to jhana starts to roll on. so jhana pleasure felt full day is not accordance with abhidhamma .. maybe after coming out of jhana for sometime mind will not have bad thoughts so good mundane moments will be there and he can maintain it but to relate it to jhana is of no related to what real jhana outcome is. u can maintain munande non-negative state of mind without jhana factors or conciousness. correct me if im wrong.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Dear Confused: I merely said the effects of tranquility etc. permeates throughout the day, jhanic state itself, is not sustained. Awareness increases. One does not do things unmindfully, or mechanically. More one practices, the greater the benefit. Consider the 8-fold path. Effects of development of one spills over to the others. One does not develop the path in isolation, factor by factor.
Developing Samma Samkappa helps develop other factors, a greater ability at letting go.
Likewise effects of practice of Samma Sati and Samma samadhi, spills over to the daily activity.
Enjoy reading your comments. Thank you.
With love :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

To identify with contact, feeling (seen, heard) and cognition, and seek a security thru them, is to be like a naive worldling who engages a criminal, just released from prison to do her bidding, a veritable murderer who enjoys killing folks. SN 22.85 
simile of the Murderous Servant
attributed to Sariputta
https//www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_85.html
SN 35.197(238) Asivisa sutta. same idea in a different format, taught by Buddha. https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN35_197.html

There is a danger (adinava) perpetually concealed within these mentalities SN 22.26.
We instinctively assume that we are in control of the contact, feeling, cognition etc. In truth they are perpetually devouring us, making us their hapless victims. Kajjaniya sutta,
"chewed up"
SN 22.79 https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_79.html
The wise one knows that ontact, feeling, perceptions are the
breeding ground for taints (asavas) and clinging (upadana)
Whatever in the world one might cling to, it is via the thought world that one clings, things contacted, things felt (seen, heard) and things cognized.
If we reflect on this long enough, we notice it is not strictly the rupa world that makes us suffer, but it is just this thought world, that betrays us and guides us into suffering.
DhP 1:
Mind is the forerunner, mind is the chief, mind-made are they
Checkmate: Samma sati, and Samma Samadhi of the 8-fold path are the moves in the game of buddhism, designed by Buddha to trap the king of suffering

Buddha the genius! a master at Chess too?
Dhammnupassana and the Buddhist jhana that will end the game.
With love :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

"Homage to the blessed One, the Arahant, the perfectly Enlightened One" how Bodhi begins Devatasamyutta of SagataVagga. Compilers have used an intriguing poem to start off...
When Devata of stunning beauty approached
"How did you cross the flood?"
"By not halting, by not straining"
Dear One replies. 
Four short lines of a poem, a lengthy foot note by Bodhi, almost three pages long follows, clarifying poem. A synopsis of several dyads.
  • "halting" by way of defilements, one sinks. "straining" (I think this should be the opposite of halting)  by way of volitional formations one gets swept away
  • By way of "craving" one sinks: by way of "views", one gets swept away
  • BY way of "eternalist view", one sinks; by way of "annihilationist view" one gets swept away
  • By way of devotion to sensual pleasures one sinks, by way of devotion to self mortification (rites, rituals?) one gets carried away
 
Apparently BB selected
 "not halting, not straining"
based on Nanananda.This translation left me unsettled, puzzled.
Yesterday I listened to Sujato at Stanford. Around 45.00 of the hour long address, only sutta he highlighted was Ogha-tarana, whimsically. I have noticed a brilliance in Sujato, that shines thru at times. It is not exactly in the thing said, but the way it impacts, how it expands one's horizons.
Dear One says to Devata in other words "I crossed the flood by not getting stuck on being  or non-being" reminiscent of another sutta. https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN12_15.html
Not getting stuck on extremes, which Nagajuna put to good use.
Sujato basically corrected my understanding of the Ogha-tarana. It is
not by Standing and not Straining
as Nanananda implied and BB used, but as Sujato translated  
by not halting and not swimming
 
In other words, crossing the ocean by not resorting to the extremes, via the Middle Path. The opposite of halting should be swimming and not straining.
Thank you Ven. Sujato, the very first sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya, is finally understood. Four Buddhist jhanas belong in the perfection of Middle Path.
With love :candle:
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mikenz66
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Re: Jhana

Post by mikenz66 »

I agree, when I read that translation I felt it made the meaning very clear:
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.1/en/sujato

:heart:
Mike
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

On the dissolution of the body with the ending of life, all that is felt and being delighted in, will become cool right here
MN 140
Is this true for everyone? It will be true for the one who has practiced Samma Sati (as in primitive Buddhism) and Samma Samadhi as in Four Noble truths.
The recipient of the quote? It was Pukkusati who had already practiced the 4 buddhist jhanas heard from a friend, another king.
What held him back? Pukkusati had become attached to Jhana.
Craving or attachment is a no-no in Buddha's world.
In MN 140 Buddha is making things right, the simile of turning the pot right side up.
MN 140 is brilliant. If you understand it, and this alone, and practice it, will lead you to end of suffering. Early on, I did not entirely understand its content, yet its beauty
appealed to me in an incomprehensible way. 
No more, misunderstandings...this does not mean I am the arahant, the challenge is in the practice. I remember Ajahn Lee Dhammadaro, translated by beloved Thannisaro  
There are those who do not understand the Dhamma (they can be forgiven, right), then there are those who understand, yet not practice 
Can the latter be forgiven? 
Just one point from Dhatuvibhanga this morning. It refers to
pure bright consciousness
that experiences contact leading to pleasure, pain and indifference. 
It speaks of rubbing two sticks together and sparking a feeling, but if the sticks are kept apart these feelings do not arise?
Keeping the sticks apart is the foundation of the practice of the four buddhist jhanas, doing away with contact, hence not manufacturing feeling. In primitive Satipatthana practice too. (Not in the 19th century version which the Burmese and Analayo teaches, but this is modern Buddhism, it serves a purpose.) 
I have little interest in that.
Each one practices what appeals to him/her, what speaks to her. At one stage of my life I pursued the Burmese and modern method. I felt like those years were wasted, but I became more familiar with suffering, so in that sense it served a purpose. Perhaps at that point my karma was not ripe enough for me to understand the jhanas via which Buddha awakened. Buddha did not awaken via what his teachers taught him. So he rejected those, the Arupa Samapatthis.
So I too stay away from those. That did not stop the mighty Abhidhammikas from packing these into the canon in their usual heavy handed manner, using hifalutin words.
MN 43 and MN 44 were popularized by Nanavira, suttas lately stitched together fed into the mouths of Sariputtha and and a Dhammadina, as BB implied.
I am pretty sure A. Wynne knows this, but he uses it to his advantage, to make Sariputta appear in a bad light. I have referred to this before.
The abhidhammikas were not idiots, they thought of every angle, balanced the Bhikkhu with Bhikkhuni.

But to return to the story of two sticks and contact. How does one practice avoidance of contact. 
This is possible via Samma Sati as practiced by Buddhists in Buddha's day, and also Samma Samadhi. 
Will continue with the story of MN 140, now and then as it inspires me. Link
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato
With love :candle:
PS Some comments by Sujato. It is only couple of min. long so maybe I do not have to summarize it.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

When there is no ignorance, or no arising of ignorance,
or when there is no longer any problem with ignorance, there is no volitional impulse,
or there is no longer any longer any problem from volitional impulses...

Due to contact three kinds of feeling arises
"Monks these three kinds of feelings are naturally impermanent, compounded, dependently arisen, transient, subject to decay, dissolution, fading cessation"
"All conditioned things (Sankhara) having arisen, must inevitably decay and fade according to supporting factors...."
Dependent arising is the middle path, presented by Buddha between extremes of eternalism and annihilationism. David Kalupahana wrote:
Considering the manner in which he explained the middle position between extremes, no one could maintain that his middle position is beyond linguistic descriptions or transcends any form of verbal expression. For the Buddha, 
whatever is empirically given is also describable or definable without having to assume metaphysical standpoints.
Thus in Buddha's view language is not in itself, an inadequate means of expressing what is empirically given.
Yet modern interpreters seem to think so

Thank god for this radiant personality, David Kalupahana, who turned the vessel of wisdom presented by Nagarjuna right side up. Unless one realizes the value of these words it is hard to earnestly negotiate the paths of Samma Sati and Samma Samadhi, that enables one to remove the dross of defilement.
With love :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

"So it was with reference to this that it was said:
One should not neglect wisdom,
should preserve truth, should cultivate relinquishment,
and should train for peace, MN 140"
In the 3rd foundation, Cagaditthana, Caga curiously means generosity, but what exactly does generosity mean in MN 140? in the context of Arahant. Letting go, let go of what? Not stuff and other belongings, that make other people happy, but giving up people dearest to oneself, things that tug at our hearts the most, one's dear ones, bonds of affection that bind the hardest, and are difficult to get rid of.
Mother of Kumara Kassapa, a Nun, attained Arahnatship on the very day she uprooted affection for her son, a sobering tale, we are all familiar with. As long as affection towards the kinsmen is not cut off-down to an infinitesimal-
the mind is bound like the suckling calf to its mother
Come to think of it, Pukkusati and Kumara Kassapa were connected in an earlier life.
The suckling calf simile is also used in the letting go of Rapture in the third jhana
An excerpt from Buddhaghosa's Dhammasangani
Just as a suckling calf, removed from its mother and left unguarded,
again approaches the mother, so the happiness of jhana tends to veer towards rapture,
its natural partner, if unguarded by mindfulness and discernment.
To prevent this and the consequent loss of the third jhana
is the task of mindfulness and discernment at this stage, prior to approaching
4th jhana
The Four Foundations of MN 140 are as follows
  • Paññāditthāna: Wisdom
    Saccādhittāna: Truth
    Cāgādhiṭṭhāna: Liberality, generosity, letting go
    Upsamādhitthāna: Peace
With love  :candle:
Spiny Norman
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Re: Jhana

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:48 am
"So it was with reference to this that it was said:
One should not neglect wisdom,
should preserve truth, should cultivate relinquishment,
and should train for peace, MN 140"
In the 3rd foundation, Cagaditthana, Caga curiously means generosity, but what exactly does generosity mean in MN 140? in the context of Arahant. Letting go, let go of what? Not stuff and other belongings, that make other people happy, but giving up people dearest to oneself, things that tug at our hearts the most, one's dear ones, bonds of affection that bind the hardest, and are difficult to get rid of.
Mother of Kumara Kassapa, a Nun, attained Arahnatship on the very day she uprooted affection for her son, a sobering tale, we are all familiar with. As long as affection towards the kinsmen is not cut off-down to an infinitesimal-
the mind is bound like the suckling calf to its mother
Come to think of it, Pukkusati and Kumara Kassapa were connected in an earlier life.
The suckling calf simile is also used in the letting go of Rapture in the third jhana
An excerpt from Buddhaghosa's Dhammasangani
Just as a suckling calf, removed from its mother and left unguarded,
again approaches the mother, so the happiness of jhana tends to veer towards rapture,
its natural partner, if unguarded by mindfulness and discernment.
To prevent this and the consequent loss of the third jhana
is the task of mindfulness and discernment at this stage, prior to approaching
4th jhana
The Four Foundations of MN 140 are as follows
  • Paññāditthāna: Wisdom
    Saccādhittāna: Truth
    Cāgādhiṭṭhāna: Liberality, generosity, letting go
    Upsamādhitthāna: Peace
With love  :candle:
I appreciate your contributions to this forum. Thank you.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Dinsdale wrote
"I appreciate your contributions to this forum"
Thanks for the kind words.
With Love :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

About God and other matters. NO_MInd posted once "But the God I like to think of is Tao"...I did not quite understand what Tao is, but in that half understood sense, my idea of god is very different, or maybe the same. It is this Nibbana, like Tao it is everywhere. 
Tao is defined as the unconditional and unknowable, a harmony the path of virtuous conduct
it all falls into place, 
Nibbana is placeless, during the times when we take a step back, a non arising, non fading nature comes to the forefront
 
The more one engages in the
upassanas or Samadhi of the right kind
this placelessness surfaces.
On the good days, even when not engaged
 
  • When the mind is free of turbulence, sunk in the totality of Earth, with no creases, no elevations,  as in the descent into the void
mind like heaven! God is gotta be there, right?
Buddha was not a metaphysiscian, he did not teach anything that could not be experienced, says David Kalupahana. My time is spent with him these days... Lockdown right?
The first time I read him, maybe 6 years ago, I barely understood him. I read him since Nagarjuna fascinated me, but without the prerequisites. 
Of Dependent origination, I was clueless not that I did not read of it...But what one reads is a bunch of words, even parrots  repeat, but they don't practice. 
Several years later, after the practice of upssanas and right samadhi, I understand both, completely??? at least i have a better idea why Nagarjuna said
Nirvana is Samsara
Obviously it shocked the Theravadin who was used to the expressions of early teachings.
A quirk in the Sanskrit word Samvrti
Sammuti's meaning gets lost in translation. Sujato says this is how Nagarjuna read the canon, in Sanskrit. Sammuti is used in the earliest Pali texts, in a different sense.
It is derived from "to think" and when prefixed with sam (meaning together with), the word conveys the idea of
'convention', 'agreement'
a convention used for designation, in reference to something. Kalu refers to a statement Buddha made regarding an instance of overstepping convention....In early Buddhism there were certain accepted conventions, but Sanskrit does not convey this. Concept in Sanskrit means something else, will continue later.
A quiet Weekend to all of You! with love  :candle:
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Jhana

Post by Crazy cloud »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:12 am Right speech or right concentration?
:candle:
It's ridiculous to make separations between them if one aims at a steady practice of the eightfold path. If one behaves like a pig then one's meditation is like a pigsty
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

🌹🌷🌼 The highest point of blessedness is achieved, according to the Mangala Sutta by the person, whose mind is not overwhelmed when contacted  with worldly phenomena (lokadhamma) is free from sorrow, taintless and secure.
Person engaged in Dhammanupassana or Samma Samadhi, has a mind like this.
This person feels secure and at peace in the midst of all destruction and confusion prevailing in the world. How about death which is the greatest hazard woman faces?
Death cannot agitate the one who has overcome craving.  
Sariputta reportedly said
  • Not fain am I to die nor yet to live I shall lay down this mortal frame
"With mind alert,
with consciousness controlled, with thought of death
I dally not, not yet delight in living.
I wait the hour like any hireling who hath done his
task"
Such is the Awoken person's attitude towards death. The times of Lock-down are hard for us.
Sometimes Samma Sati and Samma Samadhi is not available.

Then we can engage in an activity that helps us get rid of the hindrances, that calms us and removes our anxiety. While holding on to hindrances, Right Sati and Right Samadhi are impossible.
Have you tried "Flow yoga moves"? One of my yoga teachers sends a video to us, every week, since we cannot meet. It is a small class. I thought she was inordinately generous, since she posts these on Youtube for free.
It is a gift to the world in a sense, even though some of us pay her.
My other instructors resort to this on Zoom, so these cannot be shared with others.
I am sharing my fav. with you, for those who need some relief from stress

Pl. take care, with love :candle:
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