Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Alexander Wynne, revisiting, he is indispensable to my understanding, why meditate? 
Talk begins with "To bring things to a close, to sum up what has being said" It is the last of a series he made on
"Early Buddhist Meditation"
Standard view: Core of buddhist teaching is Dependent Origination. it is usually understood in two ways.
In simple terms it is read as a Doctrine of of Causality,
describing generation and continuity of suffering
At a deeper level, it is understood as:
all things are comprised of dependent phenomena, these being
insubstantial. What we call a being, or "I" or ego, self, or soul, is a false belief,
just a mental projection.
Changing impermanent things, come into being, form relationships
with other changing impermanent things,
and these things and relationships go out of existence, or disappear
Paticca samuppada sets a clear agenda for the buddhist meditator. 
  • Conditioning, impermanence, and non-self
must be understood through calm and insight. It is the direct, the perfect mindfulness, stillness, lucidity, that is being cultivated in the jhanas that makes one contemplate on the reality or the way things are.
Later he brings in
Kalaha-viveda sutta
to show that Buddha rejected notions of 'nibbana in life' and 'nibbana after death'. 
Two types of Moksa was a staple of Upanisads
Early buddhists were influenced by Upanisads. In Atthakavagga this notion is denied outright. (Around 17.00-20.00 of the talk)
An important take home. Wynne asserts that "The ideas of two types of Nibbana are dependent on the notions of Existence and non-existence". 
Kaccayanagotta sutta verifies this. 
"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications, volitions, or mental dispositions
or thinking that there is a NIbbana in life or that there is Nibbana after life and so forth
Nibbana is just this: when all lust, hatred and confusion cease to be
in that total renunciation, there is no looking back.
I will get into some details regarding Atthakavagga later. :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

🍃 The "flesh of a son", is a gruesome tale. Did Buddha want to wake us from the samsaric lethargy? the sluggish mind? A Couple is forced to kill their son,
make jerky out of it, and chew on the flesh of the son
The implication is that in our daily life, we engage in such activity. 
"Eating the food simply for the sake of making it through the desert?, Would one not?"
Buddha queries of the monks, who had begun enjoying the gifts they received from householders, and forgot why they entered the holy life.
"You've given up the home life for a greater goal"
he reminds them, "not to feed on jerky"
In the Craving for Nutriment of physical food
is embedded an aspect of passion for the five strings of sensuality, sight, aroma, taste, sound, taste, touch, and thought of sensual things
Desire foe physical food, or anything else we feed on mentally, like news, entertainment, or overdoing of activities that leads us away from sila, samadhi and wisdom. A minimal amount of food is needed to keep one alive, or minimal amounts of sensory stimulation, to maintain well being, excessively however???
Skinned cow Simile: phassa, rendered here by sense-impression, means literally "touch" or "contact." But it is not a physical impact that is meant here, but a mental contact with the objects of all six senses
SN 12.63 Sense-impression is a basic nutriment. Feelings are nourished by these. An array of sense-impressions, register as pleasant, unpleasant, or indifferent feelings. 
Recall DO:
"Conditioned by sense-impression is feeling (phassa-paccayaa vedanaa)"
Forms, sounds, smells, flavors, bodily impacts, and ideas impinge upon us relentlessly
We are like hapless skinned cows. What more appropriate simile for our samsaric predicament?
Only a Buddha would, only a Buddha could, fathom that this "Raw flesh" is the target of swarms of insects.
Samma Sati or Samma Samadhi enables us to avoid the swarms of insects. In Sona sutta Buddha counsels, how to tune spiritual faculties as one would a musical instrument.
PS
as long as 'Asava' is born in us, for sense impression, there will be an endless supply of that food to be ingested and digested by feeling, result being mostly suffering. However,  beings long to return to samsara over and over again. There are momentary enjoyments though, and for that who knows, what a being might do?
With love  :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

🦆
"Aggregates are killers including vinnana"
Radhasamyutta SN 23.1 When a meditator is supposed to be aware of consciousness is it really that? awareness of a killer, vinnana i.e. dual mind? Or is it an awareness like that in "bare cognition" an awarensss that is not split?
Excerpt
"What Venerable Sir is the purpose of seeing rightly?
The purpose of seeing rightly is dispassion, Buddha replies.
'And what Ven Sir is the purpose of dispassion? "The purpose of dispassion is liberation"
"And what venerable Sir, is the purpose of liberation? 'the purpose of liberation is nibbana"
And what Ven. Sir is the purpose of Nibbana? "you have gone beyond the range of questioning, Radha."
Next is a fictional dialogue, between a Questioner and Buddha, nevertheless would be truthful.
"What Ven. Sir is the purpose of 4th Jhana?" "Elimination of effluents and realization of nibbana"
What Ven Sir is the purpose of 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th stages of arupa jhanas?  Buddha replies "You have gone beyond the range of questioning"
 
The questioner is crestfallen, bows to the Buddha and returns to the dwelling of wanderers. Buddha's answer does not surprise me, 'cause anything other than the 4 jhanas are not included in Samma Samadhi. David Kalupahana reaffirms that the goal of Arupas is something else. How did the 4 arupa samapatthis get into the canon? Some swear by it, only the ones who can revisit the years after the expiration of Tathagata and before the canon was committed to writing is privy to this.
There are many buddhists intent on Brahma worlds, for them these practices make sense. Buddha himself admitted the goal of these Arupas, was admission to Brahma worlds, and therefore Tathagata had rejected these practices, the very canon reports this. A conflict of views, in the Buddhist canon?
Surely it was not the Buddha who was conflicted, it had to be some of the Abhidhammikas who contributed to the canon.
With love :candle:
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

except that it is 1-4 jhāna what develop right samādhi. Also its not in series 1-4 jhāna, it is 1st jhāna develop right samādhi likewise the other jhānas too are developing right samādhi.

The right samādhi is defined by the 5 factors(sensual desire, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt are given up and possesses Placing the mind, keeping it connected, rapture, bliss, and unification of mind are present.
vitakko ca vattati, vicāro ca pīti ca sukhañca cittekaggatā ca.*)

*
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato wrote:“The first absorption has given up five factors and possesses five factors.“Paṭhamaṃ kho, āvuso, jhānaṃ pañcaṅgavippahīnaṃ, pañcaṅgasamannāgataṃ.When a mendicant has entered the first absorption, sensual desire, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt are given up.Idhāvuso, paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa bhikkhuno kāmacchando pahīno hoti, byāpādo pahīno hoti, thinamiddhaṃ pahīnaṃ hoti, uddhaccakukkuccaṃ pahīnaṃ hoti, vicikicchā pahīnā hoti;..
----
Pulsar wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:53 am Next is a fictional dialogue, between a Questioner and Buddha, nevertheless would be truthful. "What Ven. Sir is the purpose of 4th Jhana?" "Elimination of effluents and realization of nibbana" What Ven Sir is the purpose of 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th stages of arupa jhanas? Buddha replies "You have gone beyond the range of questioning"
that's wrong imagination of yours.

the "you have gone beyond the range of questioning" is referring these,
“Reverend, these five faculties have different scopes and different ranges, and don’t experience each others’ scope and range. That is,“Pañcimāni, āvuso, indriyāni nānāvisayāni nānāgocarāni, na aññamaññassa gocaravisayaṃ paccanubhonti, seyyathidaṃ
—the faculties of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body.cakkhundriyaṃ, sotindriyaṃ, ghānindriyaṃ, jivhindriyaṃ, kāyindriyaṃ.
..
“These five faculties, with their different scopes and ranges, have recourse to the mind. And the mind experiences their scopes and ranges.”Imesaṃ kho, āvuso, pañcannaṃ indriyānaṃ nānāvisayānaṃ nānāgocarānaṃ, na aññamaññassa gocaravisayaṃ paccanubhontānaṃ, mano paṭisaraṇaṃ, mano ca nesaṃ gocaravisayaṃ paccanubhotī”ti.
so don't try to imagine what is beyond nibbana, leave it to the mind to do.

also when cessation of perception and feeling happen, it is not senses what cease here, senses(faculties) doesn't depend on mind but āyu(life).

edit: I regret post here, feels like I am watering the weeds.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Body of the Tathagata remains, but its connection to the 'Tree of Being' is severed
he no longer has a connection to becoming.
As long as his body remains gods and men see him; when the body breaks up, after life has been exhausted, gods and men do not see him
Body is very much a part of living Buddha, giving the appearance of his self. Buddha has not denied self entirely.
It is the
becoming-ness
that vanishes for the Arahant/the Awakened.
Body does not desire,it is the mind via body, 
where asavas sprout
an embodiment of asava!
Just like when a bunch of mangoes is cut off
the Buddha remains disconnected from
The tree of being
even while living.
Chandogya upanishad has a similar metaphor. Who copied whom? Papanca, does not lead us anywhere. We know that non-buddhists borrowed Buddha's sayings and packaged them more appealingly to seduce the naive buddhist. 
  • Word seductively strung!
This is the history of Buddhism that grew on Upanisadic or Vedic soil. The original teaching was that
Body and mind are experientially inseparable
This simplicity was too much for the papanca-prone mind to handle, so it invited
mind alone methods
a complexity, that was rampant before, during and after Buddha's time. Formless meditations were written into the canon, a prime example.
An influx of non-buddhist ideas and practices have distorted the clarity of Buddha's teaching.
'Body of Thathagata'
 is spoken of, by the Buddha,
but it is removed from the tree of being
let us reflect.
Despite reductionist efforts to say it is the mind and not body, the buddhist jhana meditator experiences a non-becoming-ness, a separation from the Tree of Being, on the good days, when jhanic bliss is infused throughout the body, leading to a state of purity, of equanimity, and of perfect mindfulness, in the 4th jhana.
The metaphor used:
Entire body shrouded in pure white cloth
a complete bodily absorption.
The non-meditator can only imagine this.
With love  :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Yoniso Manasikara, paying appropriate attention to Sati, MN 38. Sutta clarifies many issues we trip over. For instance there are lists and
we get hung up on lists such as Contact, Feeling and Sanna
without understanding the process.
Beginning of consciousness, as in Dependent origination?
It begins by sense impression
An object leaves an impression on say Eye. 
Language labels it as contact
but one may call it incipient alert.
It is how perception, or in this case eye cognition is initiated
 
It was processed via agency of eye, hence called eye cognition or eye contact/Phassa.
Now
we feel this, therefore it is called feeling
at this point it is a neutral feeling. Meanwhile the signal is sent to brain. Until now the person has no idea what she saw, it was just a sight. The mind or 6th consciousness (which can be called rubbish metaphorically) performs a different role.
It can put together stuff received from
log burning (eye) faggot burning  (ear) grass burning (nose ) cowdung burning (tongue) chaff burning (body) rubbish burning (mind) and start labelling these
based on the data available to the system.
Imagine the person as a computer, engaged in data processing. It is exactly what happens here.
This computer is subject to karma
How it processes data is influenced by karma too. The initial neutral feeling gets clarified as pleasant etc. influenced by kamma.
CNS is a rapid firing system
things happen very quickly. 
So when a friend inquires, "Does perception or cognition, or sanna happen after feeling, or prior to feeling?" it is complicated. I would say an aspect of sanna is initiated at contact, before feeling, and is elaborated after feeling.
Papanca results from mismanaged Sanna
For the person engaged in Samma Sati it is critical to understand this. The contact that happens, at the 6 sense bases cannot happen without a body. Hence, it is part of the First frame of Reference, even though the meditation itself happens of the mind.
He could meditate on
"How the Body comes to be?"
answer would be
"because the person was feeding/nourishing the body"
A Samudaya aspect.
Origination of this whole mass of suffering
The Process is explained in Putramansa sutta, it is a meditation on Dependent Origination too. Buddha's Teachings are embedded in every aspect of the spiritual life.
Examining the Second Satipatthana "How to deconstruct the feeling?" followed by Third Satipatthana "How to deconstruct Sanna" If you are creative you can relate it to Bahia, and "Bare cognition" or Vinnana Matta.
4th satipatthana is "Plain Icing on the cake" how the Awakening Factors come into fruition.
Meditation of this sort, is also
a nice orientation towards the practice the 4 Buddhist jhanas
Once you build the discipline, the stick shift you were driving, becomes an automatic shift. 
with utmost love, :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Chain of DO is broken at the link between feeling and craving (or thirsting to be) MN 38. Now this is not something easily broken, kammic force, 
this being stuck in samsara
is like "crazy glue".  We long to return to things we are familiar with? It is hard to leave family and friends, just take DW for example, we like it here, because we've become familiar with folks here, even though we engage in word battles, a thirst for familiarity.
Likewise, at the moment of death, we thirst to return to family, to regain the sight, to see the loved one, to regain the hearing, to wallow in the sensosphere, 
to be refitted with the 6 sense bases
 
Need arises thru the agency of ignorance
heavily set, by the habits of samsara. Hence the
Buyer is not Aware!
Our feelings arise because current body acquired through past craving is constantly being bombarded by the process called 
maturation of past karma
Just listen, via Sati and Samadhi, of the Right kind. If we do not delight in the feelings risen, cravings will get starved, this is what meditation trains us to do, not to delight in things of the 6 senses, so stuff like, likes and dislikes that provide further fuel for the round, do not multiply, thus bringing the round to an end. 
Karma puts the somatic material of the body to good to use, It is an ideal medium for renewal of consciousness
Our predicament of having a body is best described by SN 12.63 How should the nutriment consciousness to be seen? Suppose they were to arrest a bandit, a criminal, and bring before the king Kamma Karma saying:
"Sire this man is a bandit, a criminal. Impose on him whatever punishment you wish' The King Karma says to them "Go men in the morning strike this man with a hundred spears"
To make story short hundred spears mean the pangs of consciousness we suffer.The King Karma does not stop here, he keeps on checking whether the man is still alive, if he is, orders more of the same
"What do you think Bhikkhus? "Would that man, being struck with hundred spears, experience pain on that account?""Even if he was struck with one spear, he would cringe, and moan, not to speak of hundred spears""It is in such a way that nutriment consiousness should be seen" When nutriment consciousness is understood so, name-and-form is fully understood. When name-and-form, is fully understood, I say there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do" 
writes SN 12.63
With love on a Sunny morning.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Cannibalism, can this be? what Buddha implies in SN 12.63. He had tried gentler methods, moulding the clay of the Sangha. A drastic means
You guys are having a party, feeding on the flesh of the son, barbecued ribs of the only son?
It was to the Sangha of the day this sutta was addressed to. One can visualize the seriousness of the prevailing indiscretions among these Sangha even as Buddha was alive. I had referred to the Simile of the 'skinned cow' before, that was how he described our Contact with the sensory sphere. In the 3rd Simile,
Our existence is described as a charcoal pit
A man wants to live. He is an idiot to begin with, since he is attached to the round. He hires two gnagsters. Hired hands AKA as wholesome kamma and unwholesome kamma the accumulated karma of the man.
Man is grabbed by these, and dragged towards the charcoal pit of existence
Accumulated Kamma drags along a rebirth. For those who are averse to Rebirth, this does not have to be from life to life. In mindless moments we are being dragged along from moment to moment, and from day to day, like this, from year to year, as we blithely build up more kamma.
The one engaged in Sati or Jhana of the Right kind escapes this activity
while engaged. Can he sustain this mode? while occupied by a day's demands? This is the point of Jhana, how fruitfully one might learn to do so, so it spills over to the remains of the Day. Why did Tathagata use such a simile in SN 12.63?
MN 122 writes  
"I shall not treat you as the potter treats the raw damp clay, mollycoddling you. Instead, repeatedly restraining you, I shall speak to you, repeatedly admonishing you, I shall speak. The sound core will stand the test**"
Amen!
With love

**Those among you who are sound, having reached the paths and fruits, will stand the test.
nmjojola
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Re: Jhana

Post by nmjojola »

“Discipline is for the sake of restraint,
restraint for the sake of freedom from remorse,
freedom from remorse for the sake of joy,
joy for the sake of rapture,
rapture for the sake of tranquillity,
tranquillity for the sake of pleasure,
pleasure for the sake of concentration”

As you can see Jhana is proceeded by, or built on from, the practitioner feeling really happy about what they’re doing and how they are living.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Greetings dear nmjojola, this is the second time I run into you, an auspicious day!
thanks for the gift of your words. You wrote
As you can see Jhana is proceeded by, or built on from, the practitioner feeling really happy about what they’re doing and how they are living
What can I say
"You so get it"
Once before I glimpsed you, when you wrote on another thread, on stuff like "Playboys and music"
a remarkable poem from Buddha's discourses that caught my attention.
Thought and lust are a man's sensuality
Not the various things of the world 
Thought and Lust are a man's sensuality
The various things, just stand there in the world
You contined...
I personally find this piece powerful to reflect on, "thoughts and lust are a man's sensuality ...they are merely what arises from ignorance about the world ...so the importance of virtue lies in its symbolic concession to the way things are. Understanding this, not merely adhering to it is our task....
Absolutely cool what you say, I so dig it.
With love :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Human beings delight in Papanca, Tathagatas do not. DhP 254
Arahants are devoid of Papanca, just as the Buddhas of the past were, and future will be
There is no instability in the Arahant. Outside there is no saint. 
Householder Upali tells Mahavira in MN 56 Upali Sutta 
"I am a disciple of that Blessed One, who is tamed and devoid of Papanca"
In SN 43.14
"I teach the state devoid of Papanca bhikkhus, and the path leading to it
SN 35.201
"Therefore bhikkhus you ought to train as follows. we will abide with a mind devoid of Papanca"
Jhanic absorption is a disengagement from Papanca.
In Dasuttara we find Eight thoughts of a great man
This Dhamma is for a person who
  • 1) has few desires
  • 2) Is content 3) Is secluded 4) has aroused vigor 5) has established mindfulness 6) has attained absorption 7) has gained insight 8) delights in the lack of Papanca
We like to claim we are Dhammikas and not Adhammikas, we should check this claim of ours, by reaching into the psyche of ours. Is this true of myself? or am I lying to myself? breaking an important precept.
It takes lots of work to free oneself of Papanca, if you get my drift. It helps to study Honeyball sutta every day, since in honey-like fashion, 
it goes into depths of how Papanca is created in the mind
In this journey, you will find out for yourself, how in your daily thinking, unawares, you get stuck in Papanca. For instance, it gets one stuck in an idea of Non-being, or non-self, or that you are not yourself. It will help you understand Buddha's silence when asked by Vacchagota about self.
With love  :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Malunkyaputta and Bahia provide us with text book examples  of
Vinnana Matta
  • Mudhupindika sutta takes us there, to the theory behind practice
i.e. bare cognition. Or how not to build narratives out of form, sound, flavor, thought encountered in the lived experience. Are these two, Bahia and M'putta the only instances in the canon? Similar claims appear, in
  • Atthkavagga and Parayanavagga
Motif of detachment, stabilized awareness, sentinels at points of emergent cognition, a fully quenched person! The place of "Bare cognition" in the four buddhist jhanas? or even in Satipatthana with its four Frames of Reference or stage prior to Samma samadhi.
Vinnana Matta lets you get there without relying on an object. 
Buddha called methods relying on objects 'donkey meditation', not really, it is called the meditation of the foolish colt, AN 11.9 Sandha Sutta. Do you want to be the foolish colt or the wise one?
It is Full Moon of May, at a time like this in some past year, 'The Holy One' arrived on this earth. 
Happy Vesak! :candle: :candle: :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

I am copying a comment I made on another thread this morning, tweaking it to fit Samma samadhi.
Spiny wrote
"In the Loka Sutta, vinnana (sense-consciousness) arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object, eg eye-consciousness arises in dependence upon eye and form"
A great selection!
Loka sutta basically goes into the aspects of how the world of experience is created for each person. It is entirely different for you and I, It is dependent. The stumbling block! we each have our views, (that is why folks relentlessly argue), this can be got rid of, once the 'pesky self' is got rid of.
As for fixing DO, this is all we have to worry about, how do we reverse it? we relentlessly give rise to the phenomenal world via six different sensual impacts...how do we manage this, this crowd effect? Getting rid of the crowd of mental proliferation?
Try meditatio using "in the seen only the seen formula" in Malunkyputta, or better using MN 18. The meditation here could be practiced as in "Bare cognition" MN 18 or by applying it to Samma sati or Samma samadhi creatively. For this, you need not even sit. Over time it becomes a natural practice. Don't pay attention when folks brag "we sat for 10 hrs or ten min" The practice is timeless.
In most DO suttas, vinnana arises in dependence upon sankharas. Though there are different interpretations of what this involves.
We must not stress over different interpretations. It is true, vinnana depends on Sankaras, and sankahara depends on vinnana as written in a few DO suttas, a mutual dependence of vinnana and nama-rupa.
This is basically the larger picture.
Just it, we need the smaller picture if we are bent on reversing DO, Loka sutta and MN 18 explain how the data should be fed into the practicing apparatus by a practitioner.
The machine or the cognitive apparatus will do the rest of the job
Loka sutta goes into details of the cognitive apparatus.
He wrote
Can these three different formulations be combined in a coherent way?
Perhaps now he knows the answer to his own question. The smaller picture is found when you investigate the larger picture, i.e. within the larger picture. To tweak the larger picture, you gotta begin at the details, i.e. smaller picture.
Hence the word combine does not apply.
Once the cognitive apparatus is corrected, the sankharas stop, hence vinnana that is dependent on it. Ending of the cyclic samsara.
Sun has arrived here. Have a glorious day!
With love :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Finding traces of jhanic artifacts in Attakavagge and parayanavagge The questioners of these suttas are brahmins. Intro to Parayana wrote,
"these brahmins were all well known as teachers and men who found their enjoyment in life via their meditative practices (masters of Veda, formless samapatthis) yet they had reached only dead ends, stuck in a state of confusion, might the newly arisen Buddha unconfuse them?
verses Sn1032-1039, write, excerpts:
Ajitha's question
"In every direction, said Ajitha, 'the rivers of desire are running. How can we dam these? What can we use to close the flood-gates?"
Sn1038
"Sir said Ajitha, where there is wisdom and mindfulness there is also the hybrid of mind and matter [the generation of individuality] What brings it all to a halt?
This is the answer to your question, Ajita, said the master. individuality can be brought to a total end by the cessation of consciousness"
Buddha's very words, Yet many think when the consciousness comes to end, the person becomes unconscious. Folks believe in Arupa samapatthis without realizing these are meachanims of trapping consciousness. As long as one is stuck on such views, how can consciousness be freed?. Buddha's clear goal is the cessation of consciousness. View holder of Arupas and practicing so, end up in Brahma worlds.
"What are these rivers?" in Ajitha's question?
  • flows of Asavas. like lava fields, rivers of dependent origination, unstoppable, asavas built over lifetimes, or from moment to moment. How to stop the river of dependent origination?
build a dam.
Look up MN 18, and MN 38. Pay attention to the six types of cognition, since cognition is dependent on 6 items. Task requires  a slew of skilled engineers, overseeing, reliable construction workers, relevant machinery, coordination, unforeseen issues can crop up, storms. mudslides?? crisis management, trouble shooting .....
  • Mindfulness is involved in ?????
Reversal of a river begun aeons ago??? The attention of every moment is needed, the 37 factors, iddhipada, you name it. 37 engineers of awakening. Read "the ship" SN 22.101  
It is curious.
  • Samma samadhi excludes Arupa samapatthis.
Eight fold path wanted nothing to do with Vedic teachings. Buddha taught the way to the cessation of consciousness. By reaching that goal the Arahant surely did not become unconscious. Did he/she?
With love on an uncertain morning, sun is not sure whether to come or go. Let us hope it comes out from behind the clouds. 🌹🌷🌼💐
Spiny Norman
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Re: Jhana

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pulsar wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 1:24 pm Finding traces of jhanic artifacts in Attakavagge and parayanavagge The questioners of these suttas are brahmins. Intro to Parayana wrote,
"these brahmins were all well known as teachers and men who found their enjoyment in life via their meditative practices (masters of Veda, formless samapatthis) yet they had reached only dead ends, stuck in a state of confusion, might the newly arisen Buddha unconfuse them?
verses Sn1032-1039, write, excerpts:
Ajitha's question
"In every direction, said Ajitha, 'the rivers of desire are running. How can we dam these? What can we use to close the flood-gates?"
"What are these rivers?"
Sn1038
"Sir said Ajitha, where there is wisdom and mindfulness there is also the hybrid of mind and matter [the generation of individuality] What brings it all to a halt?
This is the answer to your question, Ajita, said the master. individuality can be brought to a total end by the cessation of consciousness"
Buddha's very words, Yet many think when the consciousness comes to end, the person becomes unconscious. Folks believe in Arupa samapatthis without realizing these are meachanims of trapping consciousness. As long as one is stuck on such views, how can consciousness be freed?. Buddha's clear goal is the cessation of consciousness. View holder of Arupas and practicing so, end up in Brahma worlds.
  • flows of Asavas. like lava fields, rivers of dependent origination, unstoppable, asavas built over lifetimes, or from moment to moment. How to stop the river of dependent origination?
build a dam.
Look up MN 18, and MN 38. Pay attention to the six types of cognition, since cognition is dependent on 6 items. Task requires  a slew of skilled engineers, overseeing, reliable construction workers, relevant machinery, coordination, unforeseen issues can crop up, storms. mudslides?? crisis management, trouble shooting .....
  • Mindfulness is involved in ?????
Reversal of a river begun aeons ago??? The attention of every moment is needed, the 37 factors, iddhipada, you name it. 37 engineers of awakening. Read "the ship" SN 22.101  
It is curious.
  • Samma samadhi excludes Arupa samapatthis.
Eight fold path wanted nothing to do with Vedic teachings. Buddha taught the way to the cessation of consciousness. By reaching that goal the Arahant surely did not become unconscious. Did he/she?
With love on an uncertain morning, sun is not sure whether to come or go. Let us hope it comes out from behind the clouds.
So Buddha taught the way to the cessation of consciousness, and yet the Arahant is presumably not unconscious.
How do you explain this conundrum?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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