Jhana: are the three types of concentration real?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Volo
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Re: Jhana: are the three types of concentration real?

Post by Volo »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:19 pm It seems mostly the Western converts, rather than Asians, who took the attitude: "this stuff isn't even worth reading, so I'll just provide a few sound-bites to show how silly it is". I don't see that attitude in the writings of the serious Asian "reformers", who seem to have studied and practised seriously and used what they found useful.
Well said. Most of western critics are not familiar even with the textual material of the commentaries, not even talking about attaining what is described there.
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Re: Jhana: are the three types of concentration real?

Post by Zom »

I meant that each jhāna has it's own upacara samadhi as preliminary stage. There are many upacara samadhis as there are many jhānas.
I don't recall such thing from Visudhimagga. Upacara is a pre-jhanic state. After that comes jhana - 1st one. After 1st jhana one shifts to 2nd if he is skilled enough, etc etc.
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Re: Jhana: are the three types of concentration real?

Post by mikenz66 »

Zom wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:08 am
I meant that each jhāna has it's own upacara samadhi as preliminary stage. There are many upacara samadhis as there are many jhānas.
I don't recall such thing from Visudhimagga. Upacara is a pre-jhanic state. After that comes jhana - 1st one. After 1st jhana one shifts to 2nd if he is skilled enough, etc etc.
In the Visuddhimagga the way to the other jhanas involve emerging from the previous one. For the fine-material jhanas there is no mention of access. Eg. Visuddhimagga IV.138:
138. When he has emerged from the first jhána, applied and sustained thought
appear gross to him as he reviews the jhána factors with mindfulness and full
awareness, while happiness and bliss and unification of mind appear peaceful.
Then, as he brings that same sign to mind as “earth, earth” again and again
with the purpose of abandoning the gross factors and obtaining the peaceful
factors, [knowing] “now the second jhána will arise,” there arises in him
mind-door adverting with that same earth kasióa as its object, interrupting the
life-continuum. After that, either four or five impulsions impel on that same
object, the last one of which is an impulsion of the fine-material sphere belonging
to the second jhána. The rest are of the sense sphere of the kinds already stated (§74).

139. And at this point, “With the stilling of applied and sustained thought he
enters upon and dwells in the second jhána, which has internal confidence and
singleness of mind without applied thought, without sustained thought, with
happiness and bliss born of concentration” (Vibh 245), and so he has attained
the second jhána, which abandons two factors, possesses three factors, is good
in three ways, possesses ten characteristics and is of the earth kasióa. [156]
However, for the immaterial attainments we have, for example Visuddhimagga X.26
26. As he directs his mind again and again on to that sign in this way, the
hindrances are suppressed, mindfulness is established, and his mind becomes
concentrated in access. He cultivates that sign again and again, develops and
repeatedly practices it. As he does so, consciousness belonging to the base
consisting of boundless consciousness arises in absorption with the [past]
consciousness that pervaded the space [as its object], just as that belonging to
the base consisting of boundless space did with the space [as its object]. But the
method of explaining the process of absorption should be understood in the
way already described.
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Re: Jhana: are the three types of concentration real?

Post by Volo »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:16 pm In the Visuddhimagga the way to the other jhanas involve emerging from the previous one. For the fine-material jhanas there is no mention of access. Eg. Visuddhimagga IV.138:
Access is also mentioned for material jhānas:
Vism wrote:8. 4. In the third dyad concentration with happiness is the unification of mind in two jhānas in the fourfold reckoning and in three jhānas in the fivefold reckoning. [86] Concentration without happiness is the unification in the remaining two jhānas. But access concentration may be with happiness or without happiness. So it is of two kinds as with happiness and without happiness.

9. 5. In the fourth dyad concentration accompanied by bliss is the unification in three jhānas in the fourfold and four in the fivefold reckoning. That accompanied by equanimity is that in the remaining jhāna. Access concentration may be accompanied by bliss or accompanied by equanimity. So it is of two kinds as accompanied by bliss and accompanied by equanimity.
And further:
Vism wrote:Disappearance of joy and grief: with the previous disappearance of the two, that is, mental bliss (pleasure) and mental pain; with the abandoning, is what is meant.

185. But when does the abandoning of these take place? At the moment of access of the four jhānas. For [mental] joy is only abandoned at the moment of the fourth-jhāna access, while [bodily] pain, [mental] grief, and [bodily] bliss (pleasure) are abandoned respectively at the moments of access of the first, second, and third jhānas.
Also
Likewise in the fourth-jhāna access there could be re-arising of the abandoned [mental] joy faculty because of its nearness and because it has not been properly surmounted owing to the absence of equanimity brought to absorption strength. But not so in the fourth jhāna itself.
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Re: Jhana: are the three types of concentration real?

Post by mikenz66 »

OK, thanks. I guess I missed those, as it wasn't as obviously spelled out as in the progress between the immaterial states.

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Re: Jhana: are the three types of concentration real?

Post by Pseudobabble »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:09 am
Are the Three Types of Concentration real?
Any type of categories are man made.
Categories are a way of communication.
You can split the Jhana in to as many types you wish.
Having said that I can recall there was a sutta which describe the in between stages of Jhana.
This is the right answer.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
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Re: Jhana: are the three types of concentration real?

Post by DooDoot »

Pseudobabble wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:17 amThis is the right answer.
Obviously the answer is wrong. Its like saying the ability of an eagle to see more acutely than a human being or for a dog to hear more acutely is "man-made". Its like saying psychological impairments, such as ADD, are "man-made". Its like saying blindness & deafness are "man-made". Obviously, jhana is a supernormal degree of concentration "made" by the maturation of the Noble Eightfold Path.

:smile:
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Re: Jhana: are the three types of concentration real?

Post by Pseudobabble »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:05 am
Pseudobabble wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:17 amThis is the right answer.
Obviously the answer is wrong. Its like saying the ability of an eagle to see more acutely than a human being or for a dog to hear more acutely is "man-made". Its like saying psychological impairments, such as ADD, are "man-made". Its like saying blindness & deafness are "man-made". Obviously, jhana is a supernormal degree of concentration "made" by the maturation of the Noble Eightfold Path.

:smile:
Not really. It's like saying that categories are just linguistic constructs which enable verbal and written communication, and which actually have no basis in reality.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
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Re: Jhana: are the three types of concentration real?

Post by DooDoot »

Pseudobabble wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:12 am Not really. It's like saying that categories are just linguistic constructs which enable verbal and written communication, and which actually have no basis in reality.
The above statement sounds non-sequitur to me because degrees or levels of samadhi are unrelated to verbal communication. For example, the phenomena of climate change. The written words "CO2" is not related to the level of CO2 than can cause climate change; just as the amount of heat from the sun necessary to sustain life on Earth is not related to verbal communication.

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Jhana: are the three types of concentration real?

Post by Pseudobabble »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:48 am
Pseudobabble wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:12 am Not really. It's like saying that categories are just linguistic constructs which enable verbal and written communication, and which actually have no basis in reality.
The above statement sounds non-sequitur to me because degrees or levels of samadhi are unrelated to verbal communication. For example, the phenomena of climate change. The written words "CO2" is not related to the level of CO2 than can cause climate change; just as the amount of heat from the sun necessary to sustain life on Earth is not related to verbal communication.

:focus:
And yet here we are, communicating verbally about levels of samadhi. The point is that any category system can be employed to analyse a phenomenon, some will be better, and some worse, depending on the appropriateness of the category system. The categories are 'man made', the phenomenon not.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
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Re: Jhana: are the three types of concentration real?

Post by DooDoot »

Pseudobabble wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:11 pmThe categories are 'man made', the phenomenon not.
Exactly. The phenomenon of three types of concentration are not related to verbal categories. Its funny how you ran with SarathW's Christian ideas about "man-made" ideas (which is obviously not Buddhist but Christian). :tongue: Time for bed.
DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN BIBLICAL VS MAN-MADE DOCTRINE

https://standupforthetruth.com/2017/01/ ... -doctrine/
We hear so much about "man made doctrine," What are some of the "man made doctrines" that exist today?

https://christianblogs.christianet.com/1278695214.htm
What is a Man-made Doctrine
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Reformed, Apr 11, 2019.

https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/wh ... ne.111787/
Matthew 15:8-9 8
"‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”

https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/wh ... ne.111787/
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There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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