Modus.Ponens wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pmIt is one thing for the body
Kaya does not necessarily mean "physical body". You keep repeating an invalid or unsubstantiated argument. Ajahn Brahm disagreed with your ideas yet you have not yet offered a refutation of Ajahn Brahm. Instead, you keep repeating your unsubstantiated argument rather than engage in proper debate.
Modus.Ponens wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pm to be pervaded by rapture and pleasure as a "side effect" of concentration, which is what happens in hard jhana.
Rapture is not a "side-effect" of concentration. If rapture was a side-effect of concentration then people who feel rapture when taking heroin or opiates would be concentrated.
Rapture is a result of the nervous-system purifying and calming; which occurs from stopping unwholesome states & allowing the previously accumulated unwholesome tendencies to dissolve.
As described in the cruder Anapanasati process, the cause of rapture is
calming the breathing & body. Right concentration is another result of this process. Both concentration & its co-factor rapture develop together when unwholesome states are prevented with right effort & right mindfulness and the mind develops "collectedness" ("samadhi") together with rapture.
Rapture develops commensurately with samadhi however, during kayanupassana, rapture is not the predominant meditation object because the breathing & body dominate the sphere of consciousness experience. It is only when the breathing ceases to impinge upon consciousness as the predominant object does rapture 'come to the surface' as the predominant object. Therefore, the idea that rapture is experienced within the physical body (as a factor of jhana) appears illogical.
The breath (per Anapanasati Sutta) must be calmed before rapture is the salient predominant object and, when the breath is calmed, consciousness of the body will also diminish because the mind/consciousness requires the breathing as a vehicle or road to travel within the physical body. When breathing is pervasively calmed, awareness of the physical body will simultaneously diminish & cease.
Modus.Ponens wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pmIt is another for the meditator to pervade and permeate his body with rapture and pleasure. The former is passive, the latter is voluntary.
Rapture is not voluntary; unless it arises from deluded sankhara (thinking). Rapture is, in fact, the very opposite of voluntary.
Modus.Ponens wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pm And to be voluntary, like referenced in MN119
MN 119 does not refer to any "voluntary rapture". Instead, MN 119 appears to refer to the very subtle use of mindfulness to control vitakka & vicara, which are actually obstacles to rapture. Thus, the rapture is there but can be diminished by vitakka & vicara.
Allow me to offer my interpretation of MN 119:
MN 119 wrote:They drench, steep, fill, and spread their body with rapture and bliss born of seclusion. There’s no part of the body that’s not spread with rapture and bliss born of seclusion.
1. Per SN 48.10, jhana is developed by 'letting go' ('vossagga'), i.e., 'expanding', 'opening' or 'releasing' the mind.
2. When consummation of jhana occurs, vitakka & vicara moves towards to explore the rapture. This vitakka & vicara actually reduces the consciousness sphere of rapture. Thus, the 'kaya' or 'whole body' of the mind is not completely filled with rapture.
3. Mindfulness & sampajanna (which by now have been high developed) counteract the vitakka & vicara, by engaging the previous 'letting go' that was perfectly developed. By countering or drawing back the vitakka & vicara, the rapture expands and the whole 'kaya' of the mind is filled with rapture.
4. Note:
MN 119 does not say: "They drench, steep, fill, and spread their body with vitakka and vicara".
5. Therefore, what is being described in MN 119 is not the volitional production of rapture but, instead,
the removal of impediments to the already existing rapture.
MN 119 wrote:It’s like when a deft bathroom attendant or their apprentice pours bath powder into a bronze dish, sprinkling it little by little with water. They knead it until the ball of bath powder is soaked and saturated with moisture, spread through inside and out; yet no moisture oozes out.
1. Above, it appears bath powder is the mind and the bronze dish is the body of the sphere/scope of conscious experience.
2. The 'kneading' is sati-sampajjana that has been highly trained and sprinkles the water of 'letting go' or 'vossagga' (aka, the Deathless).
3. The accumulated moisture that causes the bath power to expand is rapture.
4. Stopping the rapture or moisture from oozing out is the continuous stopping of vitakka & vicara from impeding upon the fullness of the rapture.
Modus.Ponens wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pmthe mind cannot be completely fixed on the object.
One part of the mind in jhana is completely fixed on the mental image; similar to a wheel fixed to an axle. Yet the wheel still spins & is round; similar to how the mind, while fixed in the middle, is exalted towards its horizons, in jhana. Also, while part of the mind is fixed, sati-sampajjana can still subtly operate.
Modus.Ponens wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pmWhat seems to happen is that the deeper the concentration, the more automatic the processes associated with jhana become (transition between jhanas, pervasion of the body, or time spent during jhana). But if you are rigid and only accept hard jhana as the only valid form of concentration, it might complicate your life.
There is no such teaching of "hard" vs "soft jhana" nor "rigid jhana" in the suttas. The suttas (SN 48.10 and MN 118) say (the 1st) jhana is developed by making "letting go" ("vossagga") the meditation object and say the 4th jhana includes the qualities of "pliant and malleable". Therefore, there is no sutta evidence for "rigid" jhana; yet in jhana, the mind has ekaggata citta. What complicates life is taking a mundane interest in a superhuman phenomena. In actual jhana, a part of the mind is completely fixed; yet another part of the mind is luminous, spaciousness & exalted; and another part of the mind is sensitive & nimble (with perfect sati-satipajjana). Let me post the definition of the 4th jhana to free you of your rigid ideas about "soft" vs "hard". The following description of the 4th jhana obviously includes both "soft" & "hard" qualities:
When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady & attained to imperturbability