How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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confusedlayman
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Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

nirodh27 wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:16 pm
DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:44 am
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:52 am very good to hear. is it retreat by monk or lay teacher?
Take care with claims on the internet. Many overestimate jhana. The Buddha said jhana leads to loss of temptation towards sensuality.
Hi DooDoot,

I think it is important to say that this loss of temptation is not permanent btw, I've read somewhere in the Anguttara (don't have the book here now) that one can go back to sensuality simply by bonding with lay people and loosen up.
It is possible for lust conciousness to arise in a mind stream after emerging and cessation of jhanic conciousness... i think the story u saying is a monk who attained 4 jhanas and boast himself as pure but abbot of monestry say he will surely go back to low lay life.. as predicted he went back to lay life giving up monk life for 6 times (not sure how many times).. this happened during buddhas time ... can anyone tell me sutta name its been long since i read this...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
bodhifollower
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Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by bodhifollower »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:42 am weight perception not in 3rd but in 2nd.. is it because piti is seen as perception of weight?
Wrong view.
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confusedlayman
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Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

bodhifollower wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:54 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:42 am weight perception not in 3rd but in 2nd.. is it because piti is seen as perception of weight?
Wrong view.
Whats ur exp?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
bodhifollower
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Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by bodhifollower »

Laurens wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:56 pm It depends on the capacity to which you mean really tried.

I mean I've spent quite a lot of time really wanting to attain the jhanas, and trying to do so under that pretence. This didn't really get me anywhere. I would just become frustrated.

I guess now I am engaged in really trying. By which I mean I don't think about jhana when I meditate. I meditate contemplating various things that aid my ability to see the drawbacks of sense desire, and help me to be more restrained in my senses as well as planting the seeds of wisdom. I realise how far I've got to go in this, and how silly I was to think I could skip the actual work of practise and just go to what I perceived one of the goals to be. In letting go of wanting the jhanas, and actually working on my practise rather than pretending, I have achieved more peace in my meditation. Nothing close to jhana level, but I've stopped measuring my meditation in terms of how peaceful it is, and instead in how much it helps me to restrain my senses and look upon things with right view.

I used to sit in meditation thinking about how I could attain jhana, when in my day to day life I would be binge eating random food just for the sake of a nice taste sensation. So I have decided to turn my attention to where it is actually needed, rather than trying to enter some kind of cheat code and skip the part where I have to try to do anything difficult. So I guess what I mean to say is, that I think jhanas probably come a lot further down the path for a lot of people than they would like to believe. For this reason I think many people would do better to forget about them and work on guarding the senses, and abandoning the hindrances.

I don't say this as pretending to be more advanced or anything like that. Rather as someone who has realised just how un-advanced they are on the path, and how distracted they were by ideas of attainments that come further down the path.
You've given up. Don't tell this to others. Jhana is the best cheat code and it is worth pursuing till you die. The world is mara's cheat code on your happiness. Cheating away your pleasure. Jhana takes the power back.
You need to be "dwelling alone, withdrawn, heedful, ardent, and resolute" if you want to get it. Never stop.

That's like saying, you can't become buff these days, it's unrealistic, you better stick to dieting. No people can get buff. If you think they aren't buff you are turning a blind eye.
Laurens
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Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by Laurens »

bodhifollower wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:01 am You've given up. Don't tell this to others. Jhana is the best cheat code and it is worth pursuing till you die. The world is mara's cheat code on your happiness. Cheating away your pleasure. Jhana takes the power back.
You need to be "dwelling alone, withdrawn, heedful, ardent, and resolute" if you want to get it. Never stop.

That's like saying, you can't become buff these days, it's unrealistic, you better stick to dieting. No people can get buff. If you think they aren't buff you are turning a blind eye.
Giving up is what its all about.

That is not to say I deny that jhana is an important part of the path, I just don't think the right way to pursue it is to become fixated on it. When you try to grasp jhana it pushes it away. So better to forget about it, and practise letting go to the extent that you are able to instead of trying to get something out of meditation.

I see so much jhana discussion and fixation on this forum, I can't help but think it might lead people astray getting caught up in grasping at it. As I understand it these meditative states arise of their own accord if one is able to let go to a sufficient degree, so its better to forget about it because trying is the opposite of letting go.

Having spent most of my meditating life learning about Buddhism online, and using forums like this, I think it does more harm than good to over emphasise jhana. People are attracted to pleasure and altered states of consciousness. When they read that it is possible to attain this through meditation it can become a massive hang up. Without guidance it can lead to years of frustration, and possibly even the abandonment of practise entirely. Meditate without trying to attain some deep state, and progress in that fashion.

I'm not saying that it's unrealistic, but I am saying that becoming fixated with it, and trying to attain it through grasping is not a healthy way to practise. Forget about it and if it happens it happens. Grasping at it is creating the opposite conditions for it's arising.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

Laurens wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:44 am
bodhifollower wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:01 am You've given up. Don't tell this to others. Jhana is the best cheat code and it is worth pursuing till you die. The world is mara's cheat code on your happiness. Cheating away your pleasure. Jhana takes the power back.
You need to be "dwelling alone, withdrawn, heedful, ardent, and resolute" if you want to get it. Never stop.

That's like saying, you can't become buff these days, it's unrealistic, you better stick to dieting. No people can get buff. If you think they aren't buff you are turning a blind eye.
Giving up is what its all about.

That is not to say I deny that jhana is an important part of the path, I just don't think the right way to pursue it is to become fixated on it. When you try to grasp jhana it pushes it away. So better to forget about it, and practise letting go to the extent that you are able to instead of trying to get something out of meditation.

I see so much jhana discussion and fixation on this forum, I can't help but think it might lead people astray getting caught up in grasping at it. As I understand it these meditative states arise of their own accord if one is able to let go to a sufficient degree, so its better to forget about it because trying is the opposite of letting go.

Having spent most of my meditating life learning about Buddhism online, and using forums like this, I think it does more harm than good to over emphasise jhana. People are attracted to pleasure and altered states of consciousness. When they read that it is possible to attain this through meditation it can become a massive hang up. Without guidance it can lead to years of frustration, and possibly even the abandonment of practise entirely. Meditate without trying to attain some deep state, and progress in that fashion.

I'm not saying that it's unrealistic, but I am saying that becoming fixated with it, and trying to attain it through grasping is not a healthy way to practise. Forget about it and if it happens it happens. Grasping at it is creating the opposite conditions for it's arising.
the worst case senario of jhana is rebirth in brahma plane, the higheest fruit is 4 stage attainment.. i dont think there is disadvantage in that.. if u can access, enjoy and call urself future brahma.. if not try hard to attain but dont give up...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Laurens
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Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by Laurens »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:18 am the worst case senario of jhana is rebirth in brahma plane, the higheest fruit is 4 stage attainment.. i dont think there is disadvantage in that.. if u can access, enjoy and call urself future brahma.. if not try hard to attain but dont give up...
Again, I am not denying that samma samadhi is a part of the path. I am not trying to avoid jhana. I am just avoiding making my entire practise around trying to attain it.

This is because wanting to attain something from meditation is a sure way to increase craving and suffering and get further from the goal. So my approach is not to avoid jhana, but ignore it, and trust that if I am destined to attain it I will do so by practise of letting go, and not trying to get things from meditation.

Its not so much giving up but a change in emphasis.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by bodhifollower »

Laurens wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:44 am
bodhifollower wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:01 am You've given up. Don't tell this to others. Jhana is the best cheat code and it is worth pursuing till you die. The world is mara's cheat code on your happiness. Cheating away your pleasure. Jhana takes the power back.
You need to be "dwelling alone, withdrawn, heedful, ardent, and resolute" if you want to get it. Never stop.

That's like saying, you can't become buff these days, it's unrealistic, you better stick to dieting. No people can get buff. If you think they aren't buff you are turning a blind eye.
Giving up is what its all about.

That is not to say I deny that jhana is an important part of the path, I just don't think the right way to pursue it is to become fixated on it. When you try to grasp jhana it pushes it away. So better to forget about it, and practise letting go to the extent that you are able to instead of trying to get something out of meditation.

I see so much jhana discussion and fixation on this forum, I can't help but think it might lead people astray getting caught up in grasping at it. As I understand it these meditative states arise of their own accord if one is able to let go to a sufficient degree, so its better to forget about it because trying is the opposite of letting go.

Having spent most of my meditating life learning about Buddhism online, and using forums like this, I think it does more harm than good to over emphasise jhana. People are attracted to pleasure and altered states of consciousness. When they read that it is possible to attain this through meditation it can become a massive hang up. Without guidance it can lead to years of frustration, and possibly even the abandonment of practise entirely. Meditate without trying to attain some deep state, and progress in that fashion.

I'm not saying that it's unrealistic, but I am saying that becoming fixated with it, and trying to attain it through grasping is not a healthy way to practise. Forget about it and if it happens it happens. Grasping at it is creating the opposite conditions for it's arising.
That's not right. You should be so "fixated" and addicted to jhana that you try to become a monk to do it all the time. Everything you're saying is the opposite of what the Buddha said. 8 part path, not 7 part path. The Buddha said desire for jhana has 4 results. Stream entry, once returning, non returning, and arahantship.
Please don't spread misinformation friend. Giving up is everything it's not about. Buddha would encourage monks to have energy many times.
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Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by Laurens »

bodhifollower wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:34 pm That's not right. You should be so "fixated" and addicted to jhana that you try to become a monk to do it all the time. Everything you're saying is the opposite of what the Buddha said. 8 part path, not 7 part path. The Buddha said desire for jhana has 4 results. Stream entry, once returning, non returning, and arahantship.
Please don't spread misinformation friend. Giving up is everything it's not about. Buddha would encourage monks to have energy many times.
I don't think you understand what I am saying.

I'm not saying don't meditate or that Jhana is unimportant however you don't get it through wanting it and craving it. Jhana occurs when one's mind is free from self centered craving. So you will preclude yourself from attaining it if you are fixated on attaining it.

Thus if you ignore it and just focus upon letting go as much as you are capable in this very moment during meditation you are much more liable to develop the conditions for Jhana than if you sit thinking about attaining Jhana.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by Jayanti »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:44 pm i read many people post quites and commentries and debate of jhana. But how many really tried following the instruction if jhana and had progressed atleast little bit? Is it really working from ur exp?
Confusedlayman, you might benefit from this:

http://urbandharma.org/pdf1/Path_of_Fre ... imagga.pdf

Notice jhanas are not defined as something very hard like latr visuddhimagga. This work is late but not as late. It is a good book.
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Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

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Jayanti wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:04 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:44 pm i read many people post quites and commentries and debate of jhana. But how many really tried following the instruction if jhana and had progressed atleast little bit? Is it really working from ur exp?
Confusedlayman, you might benefit from this:

http://urbandharma.org/pdf1/Path_of_Fre ... imagga.pdf

Notice jhanas are not defined as something very hard like latr visuddhimagga. This work is late but not as late. It is a good book.
thanks i will look in to it.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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confusedlayman
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Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

When meditation become deep at initial stage, mind goes in to blackness/blankness ... at this time if i let go of awareness, i enter in to deep sleep... how to maintain awareness at all cost?

if i try to maintain awareness with effort, thoughts come back most of times, even with im fresh and not drowsy, there is deep sleep if i dont focus on being aware or something i duno how to say

any tips?
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Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:37 am When meditation become deep at initial stage, mind goes in to blackness/blankness ...
Seems to be the opposite of concentration, kind of negative distraction

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:37 am any tips?
Take an object and stay on it.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ . (This is the esoteric essence of the yoga of continuous flow which is no different from the universal flux of materiality. Therefore exoteric natural science provides vital guidelines.) अञ्जलि वागीश्वर
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Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:28 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:37 am When meditation become deep at initial stage, mind goes in to blackness/blankness ...
Seems to be the opposite of concentration, kind of negative distraction

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:37 am any tips?
Take an object and stay on it.
thanks for the tips. yes, i will try some other object.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

Bhante Narada says jhana should be minimum for layman

https://www.dropbox.com/s/exy9xi1ejd7a6 ... s.pdf?dl=0
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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