How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3071
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:58 am
Pondera wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:22 am I have returned after months of personal investigation and growth.

I agree that dream jhana is possible. I have had several experiences in dreams where the nimitta is quite clear and it is easy to access. The resulting joy and rapture is palatable.

Regarding waking Jhanas. The following might be useful. I am endured to this sutta.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el277.html

For “soft jhanas” there is an easy way to induce rapture and pleasure by merely manipulating certain nervous epicentres of the body - such as the bottom of the heart - or the vagus nerve in the neck.

I have had ongoing success cascading through the stages of transcendental dependent origination by merely suspending nervous activity in - for example - the bottom of the heart - or the vagus nerve in the neck.

I have not, however, achieved the kind of “orgasmic bliss” or “power” enabled by a dream like jhanic state - during my waking hours. I continue, none the less, to aspire to a clean and pure brightness of aura - as described in the fourth jhana.

Many blessings,

Pondera
the I'm not taking about dream jhana
I apologize. You’re talking about waking nimittas? Very hard to find and sustain.
also, what you mean by nerves in bottom heart? did u physically stop the nerve? why so?
I should rephrase. By suspending tension in the bottom of the heart the force of each heart beat and also the frequency of the heart beat decrease.

The heart has a feedback loop with the brain (facilitated by a triage of nerves). When the heart relaxes, the mind relaxes. It feels JOY in fact. From JOY we get RAPTURE - and so on.

This is my approach to jhana. I identify four areas where nervous activity can be manipulated and calmed. I generate a series of events which amount to a state of concentration. From concentration, I develop discernment.

My objects of meditation are the four colour kasinas and the wind kasina.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
BlackMagic
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:21 am

Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by BlackMagic »

Consider oneself/others as being continually; In and out of jhana then consider:

When all things are returnable to one what is the one returnable too?
What has happened; Is that which has yet to come. What will be ...Already is.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

BlackMagic wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:46 pm Consider oneself/others as being continually; In and out of jhana then consider:

When all things are returnable to one what is the one returnable too?
things can't return, they cease without reminder... another thing takes their place or occupies mind
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
BlackMagic
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:21 am

Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by BlackMagic »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:20 pm
BlackMagic wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:46 pm Consider oneself/others as being continually; In and out of jhana then consider:

When all things are returnable to one what is the one returnable too?
things can't return, they cease without reminder... another thing takes their place or occupies mind
Phala phala phala monkey/man picking fruit... there is nirvana/nibbana with and without remainder.
What has happened; Is that which has yet to come. What will be ...Already is.
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by auto »

Pondera wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:59 am
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:58 am the I'm not taking about dream jhana
I apologize. You’re talking about waking nimittas? Very hard to find and sustain.
He is talking about sleep paralysis. For him it is the waking state with senses being off and mind's awake. That is prolly why you didn't got confirmation from him if it is waking state or a dream. It is a state where he attempts to enter jhana.
So whenever he hears about descriptions of 'body being still..', 'senses are off during jhana' he thinks it is genuine, the right way.. will he listen someone who tells otherwise? nope, it is then wrong jhana in his opinion.
Now imagine the knowing of the impermanence of ones own convictions and then looking ways how to cease these. Once you see its impermanence i doubt one would hold on to following a hunch or feel that it is correct way to attain jhana instead it is a chain, a fetter what takes sense organs* as their objects.

*edit: sense consciousness as their object
https://suttacentral.net/vb16/en/thittila wrote:The basis of knowledge by way of singlefold division: The five types of sense consciousness are not roots; are not accompanied by roots; are not associated with roots; are with cause; are conditioned; are not material; are mundane; are objects of the defilements; are objects of the fetters; are objects of the ties; are objects of the floods; are objects of the bonds; are objects of the hindrances; are objects of the perversions; are objects of the graspings; are objects of the corruptions; are neither-skilful-nor-unskilful; have objects; are not volitional activities; are resultants; are grasped (by craving and false view), are objects of the graspings; are not corrupt, are objects of the corruptions;

are not “accompanied by initial application, accompanied by sustained application”; are not “without initial application, sustained application only”; are without initial application, without sustained application; are not accompanied by rapture; are not to be abandoned either by the first path or by the subsequent paths; have no roots to be abandoned either by the first path or by the subsequent paths; are neither cumulative nor dispersive (of continuing rebirth and death); are neither of the seven supramundane stages nor of the final supramundane stage; are low; are characteristic of the plane of desire; are not characteristic of the plane of form; are not characteristic of the formless plane; are included (i.e. are mundane); are not “not included” (i.e. not supramundane); are of no fixed (resultant time); do not tend to release.

Ekavidhena ñāṇavatthu—pañca viññāṇā na hetū, ahetukā, hetuvippayuttā, sappaccayā, saṅkhatā, arūpā, lokiyā, sāsavā, saṃyojaniyā, ganthaniyā, oghaniyā, yoganiyā, nīvaraṇiyā, parāmaṭṭhā, upādāniyā, saṃkilesikā, abyākatā, sārammaṇā, acetasikā, vipākā, upādinnupādāniyā, asaṃkiliṭṭhasaṃkilesikā, na savitakkasavicārā, na avitakkavicāramattā, avitakkaavicārā, na pītisahagatā, neva dassanena na bhāvanāya pahātabbā, neva dassanena na bhāvanāya pahātabbahetukā, nevācayagāmināpacayagāmino, nevasekkhanāsekkhā, parittā, kāmāvacarā, na rūpāvacarā, na arūpāvacarā, pariyāpannā, no apariyāpannā, aniyatā, aniyyānikā.
Inedible
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 am
Location: Iowa City

Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by Inedible »

With most reasonably interesting tasks it isn't that unusual to spend an hour or two or even three without having to stop or feeling strain. The moment I sit down and arrange my body to meditate the struggle begins. It is a fight from start to finish. And I really don't know why. Just the intent to start meditation seems to trigger the problem. But a book, a movie, a puzzle, a video game. I can sit quietly for hours and stay focused on the task without any trouble. I don't have trouble concentrating. Why is it so hard to take my existing ability and just transfer it over to the most important thing I can possibly do?
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

Inedible wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:52 pm With most reasonably interesting tasks it isn't that unusual to spend an hour or two or even three without having to stop or feeling strain. The moment I sit down and arrange my body to meditate the struggle begins. It is a fight from start to finish. And I really don't know why. Just the intent to start meditation seems to trigger the problem. But a book, a movie, a puzzle, a video game. I can sit quietly for hours and stay focused on the task without any trouble. I don't have trouble concentrating. Why is it so hard to take my existing ability and just transfer it over to the most important thing I can possibly do?
Think positive about benifits of meditation and show interest more so u can sit long .. or else normally while sleeping in night.. try to maintain awareness and let body asleep
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User1249x
Posts: 2749
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by User1249x »

i've had sort of dream nimitta as well. id dream that i do anapanasati and all field of perception goes white for a while, the white is all encompassing and persists until i wake up. It's what id expect white kasina to be like irl so i assume that the dream was like a visualization of my expectation and i am not sure how these are classified.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

User1249x wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:04 am i've had sort of dream nimitta as well. id dream that i do anapanasati and all field of perception goes white for a while, the white is all encompassing and persists until i wake up. It's what id expect white kasina to be like irl so i assume that the dream was like a visualization of my expectation and i am not sure how these are classified.
Nimitta is just perception of white light or other object..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

Techniqies to acheive mental stillness?

Focus on breath or focus on background awareness of awwreness or focus on 3 signs or which one is best?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Inedible
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 am
Location: Iowa City

Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by Inedible »

Recently I realized that it didn't matter how long I was sitting to try to meditate. I just expect to fail, so too much of me spends the entire time just waiting to get up again. It wasn't like that the first time I sat up and decided to try it. It was before I'd read anything about how to do it. No one told me anything, either, but I just knew to start counting breaths. It worked. And then my mom opened the door and turned on the light and scared me in the process. She didn't approve. For several minutes, though, I was completely invested in the process.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

jhana maybe bliss, normal waking state maybe normally ok but its hard and tiresome when transit from waking state to access...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by pitithefool »

We should all be striving to attain jhana

Without jhana, there is no noble eightfold path.
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
Inedible
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 am
Location: Iowa City

Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by Inedible »

The advice a lot of people here seem to have is to work on removing the five hindrances in daily life, not only on the cushion. Same thing for building jhana factors. Then we start out closer to access concentration when sitting down. Instead I have been hoping to learn jhana first and use it for suppressing hindrances second.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: How many of you really tried to attain jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

Inedible wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:32 am The advice a lot of people here seem to have is to work on removing the five hindrances in daily life, not only on the cushion. Same thing for building jhana factors. Then we start out closer to access concentration when sitting down. Instead I have been hoping to learn jhana first and use it for suppressing hindrances second.
Whenever i want to attain jhana, mara disturbs me and delays.. in other words im getting distracted
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Post Reply