Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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confusedlayman
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by confusedlayman »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:47 am
User1249x wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:09 pm
DooDoot wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:34 pm 3. Therefore, when non-Aryians read AN 9.34, because a non-Aryian has not tasted the freedom of Nibbana, they might believe Nibbana is the Cessation of Perception & Feeling (which is a state of unconsciousness; compared to a corpse in MN 43 ).
MN 43
"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."
It is has only been compared to a corpse in as much as the difference between the two states has been delineated, it has not been likened to being dead contrary to your statement. As a matter of fact Ven. Sariputta makes it clear that there are fundamental differences, he never says unconsciousness, he explicitly says that the faculties are exceptionally clear.
Hello friend.
If you still use the forum, please explain more about it. Thank you!!
so sariputta was delighting in conciouensess? or awareness?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:48 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:47 am
User1249x wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:09 pm

It is has only been compared to a corpse in as much as the difference between the two states has been delineated, it has not been likened to being dead contrary to your statement. As a matter of fact Ven. Sariputta makes it clear that there are fundamental differences, he never says unconsciousness, he explicitly says that the faculties are exceptionally clear.
Hello friend.
If you still use the forum, please explain more about it. Thank you!!
so sariputta was delighting in conciouensess? or awareness?
No idea. :rolleye:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
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See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Pondera wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:21 am.

There are too many examples to list of Arahants entering Nirodha Samapatti and “investigating” that attainment through wisdom.
Hello Pondera.
Could you please post some of them?
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
User1249x
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by User1249x »

When you wake up from a dream you are no longer percepient of the dream-world-existence, you are percepient of the worldly existence. One perception arises as another perception ceases.

When entering cessation, you are no longer percepient of worldly existence, you are percepient of it's cessation. One perception arises as another perception ceases.
“One perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ Just as, when a fire of twigs is burning, one flame arises and another flame ceases, so one perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ On that occasion, friend, I was percipient: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna.’”

Aṅguttara Nikāya 10.7
Sāriputta Sutta
Cessation of existence is Nibbana, the arahants with the breakup of the body abandon all being, there is then no fuel for a future, cessation of existence is extinguishment.

The thought does not occur 'i am about to enter into' or 'i am about to emerge from' the cessation of perception & feeling, thoughts occur in the context of existence not outside.

The Buddha says;
"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

"No, lord."

"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."

"'Having directly known the all as the all, and having directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, I wasn't the all, I wasn't in the all, I wasn't coming forth from the all, I wasn't "The all is mine." I didn't affirm the all."
What this means is that he was percepient of the cessation of the existence altogether and nothing came out of it.

Nothing of this world goes on to perceive the Unmade, neither before nor after the cessation of the conception & perception of the All.

If 5 people enter nirodha samapatti at the same time, then the unmade element is not perceived by 5 entities, nor are there 5 unmades; nor are the 5 people one and the same.
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
If you woke up from the dream but the other people in the dream-world would remain percepient of your dream-world-body, they would say 'he isn't non-percepient, he has gone beyond this world and is absorbed in dependence on perception of the real world". (This is just a thought experiment to make a point.)

If wise people in the real world would see your real-world body as you are absorbed in dependence on the nirodha principle they would say 'he isn't dead, he is is absorbed in dependence on cessation principle, neither percepient of this world nor the next but he is not not percepient'.

With the breakup of the body and without residue fuel for a future the Arahants abandon all being, cessation of existence is it's extinguishment and just this is the end of suffering.

There is then nothing left which can be grasped with wrong view as being a person or as belonging to this or that person by people in the real world or any other world.

(Im not going to engage anyone itt and will ignore whatever you have to say because i am not keen on being abused by members of DW, only posted as a one-time-thing because i was asked nicely)
Last edited by User1249x on Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

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User1249x wrote: cessation of existence is extinguishment.
so to speak…
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

User1249x wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:21 pm When you wake up from a dream you are no longer percepient of the dream-world-existence, you are percepient of the worldly existence. One perception arises as another perception ceases.

When entering cessation, you are no longer percepient of worldly existence, you are percepient of its cessation.
One perception arises as another perception ceases.

This was the best explanation I read. Thank you :hug:
It's a great loss for the community not to have you here anymore actively.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by confusedlayman »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:45 pm
User1249x wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:21 pm When you wake up from a dream you are no longer percepient of the dream-world-existence, you are percepient of the worldly existence. One perception arises as another perception ceases.

When entering cessation, you are no longer percepient of worldly existence, you are percepient of its cessation.
One perception arises as another perception ceases.

This was the best explanation I read. Thank you :hug:
It's a great loss for the community not to have you here anymore actively.
you are not perceptient of cessation as it lies above neither perception nor non perception state
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

I'm done with this thread. [name redacted by admin]'s post was sufficient and matches perfectly my experience. I was wondering what was happening after neither-perception-nor-non-perception and his description is exactly the case.

Buddhaghosa is wrong, btw. I'll not take the Visuddhimagga so seriously anymore.

Thanks everyone. Have a nice day. :anjali:
Last edited by rhinoceroshorn on Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
SteRo
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

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rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:45 pm
This was the best explanation I read.
how can you be sure that an explanation of what you don´t know can be "best"? it can be utterly inappropriate and just cause a liking because it satisfies your pre-conditioned intellect.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by SteRo »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:37 pm [name redacted by admin]'s post ... matches perfectly my experience.
that´s the root of illusion.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:37 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:45 pm
This was the best explanation I read.
how can you be sure that an explanation of what you don´t know can be "best"? it can be utterly inappropriate and just cause a liking because it satisfies your pre-conditioned intellect.
Because I have access to Nirodha.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
SteRo
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by SteRo »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:39 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:37 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:45 pm
This was the best explanation I read.
how can you be sure that an explanation of what you don´t know can be "best"? it can be utterly inappropriate and just cause a liking because it satisfies your pre-conditioned intellect.
Because I have access to Nirodha.
funny ... you mean you´ve had an experience and wanted that to be Nirodha
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:41 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:39 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:37 pm

how can you be sure that an explanation of what you don´t know can be "best"? it can be utterly inappropriate and just cause a liking because it satisfies your pre-conditioned intellect.
Because I have access to Nirodha.
funny ... you mean you´ve had an experience and wanted that to be Nirodha
In other thread you were belittling jhānas. What expect from you after that?
May you be happy, SteRo. :zzz: :hello:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
SteRo
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by SteRo »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:45 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:41 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:39 pm

Because I have access to Nirodha.
funny ... you mean you´ve had an experience and wanted that to be Nirodha
In other thread you were belittling jhānas.
not true. and I don´t belittle Nirodha when I don´t buy your wishful stories.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:53 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:45 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:41 pm

funny ... you mean you´ve had an experience and wanted that to be Nirodha
In other thread you were belittling jhānas.
not true. and I don´t belittle Nirodha when I don´t buy your wishful stories.
Ok. :meditate:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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