Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

We have a deep disagreement here.
- Śariputta never talked about unconsciousness
- Buddhaghosa talked about unconsciousness
- If it were the case, why would not Venerable Śariputta explicitly says 'he is not conscious' or something like that? Why using vippasannāni?
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
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SteRo
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by SteRo »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:34 am We have a deep disagreement here.
- Śariputta never talked about unconsciousness
- Buddhaghosa talked about unconsciousness
- If it were the case, why would not Venerable Śariputta explicitly says 'he is not conscious' or something like that? Why using vippasannāni?
question: if there is neither perception nor feeling, what might one be conscious of?
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

User1249x wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:09 pm
DooDoot wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:34 pm 3. Therefore, when non-Aryians read AN 9.34, because a non-Aryian has not tasted the freedom of Nibbana, they might believe Nibbana is the Cessation of Perception & Feeling (which is a state of unconsciousness; compared to a corpse in MN 43 ).
MN 43
"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."
It is has only been compared to a corpse in as much as the difference between the two states has been delineated, it has not been likened to being dead contrary to your statement. As a matter of fact Ven. Sariputta makes it clear that there are fundamental differences, he never says unconsciousness, he explicitly says that the faculties are exceptionally clear.
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Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:42 am
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:34 am We have a deep disagreement here.
- Śariputta never talked about unconsciousness
- Buddhaghosa talked about unconsciousness
- If it were the case, why would not Venerable Śariputta explicitly says 'he is not conscious' or something like that? Why using vippasannāni?
question: if there is neither perception nor feeling, what might one be conscious of?
I don't know, that's why I'm asking. :tongue:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
SteRo
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

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this is a phantom debate. people seem to think of "passed out" when there is no consciousness. :shrug:
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by SteRo »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:50 am
SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:42 am
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:34 am We have a deep disagreement here.
- Śariputta never talked about unconsciousness
- Buddhaghosa talked about unconsciousness
- If it were the case, why would not Venerable Śariputta explicitly says 'he is not conscious' or something like that? Why using vippasannāni?
question: if there is neither perception nor feeling, what might one be conscious of?
I don't know, that's why I'm asking. :tongue:
if you can´t think of anything one might be conscious of if there is neither perception nor feeling but you are asking nevertheless then that´s either trolling or irrational. but hey, pondera even believes there can be experience in the absence of perception and feeling :shrug:
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:55 am
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:50 am
SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:42 am

question: if there is neither perception nor feeling, what might one be conscious of?
I don't know, that's why I'm asking. :tongue:
if you can´t think of anything one might be conscious of if there is neither perception nor feeling but you are asking nevertheless then that´s either trolling or irrational. but hey, pondera even believes there can be experience in the absence of perception and feeling :shrug:
There can be, I just don't know how to verbalize it to make it be in conformity with the Buddhist terminology.

Explain how Ven. Śariputta was able to distinguish the clearness of Nirodha Samāpatti. You cant. There must be a trace of consciousness.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
SteRo
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by SteRo »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:39 pm Explain how Ven. Śariputta was able to distinguish the clearness of Nirodha Samāpatti. You cant. There must be a trace of consciousness.
through retrospective discernment.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:47 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:39 pm Explain how Ven. Śariputta was able to distinguish the clearness of Nirodha Samāpatti. You cant. There must be a trace of consciousness.
through retrospective discernment.
"This body must lose three things before it lies forsaken, tossed aside like an insentient log: vitality, warmth, and consciousness.”

“What’s the difference between someone who has passed away and a mendicant who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling?”

“When someone dies, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled; their vitality is spent; their warmth is dissipated; and their faculties have disintegrated. When a mendicant has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled. But their vitality is not spent; their warmth is not dissipated; and their faculties are very clear. That’s the difference between someone who has passed away and a mendicant who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.”

:reading:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
SteRo
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by SteRo »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:56 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:47 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:39 pm Explain how Ven. Śariputta was able to distinguish the clearness of Nirodha Samāpatti. You cant. There must be a trace of consciousness.
through retrospective discernment.
"This body must lose three things before it lies forsaken, tossed aside like an insentient log: vitality, warmth, and consciousness.”

“What’s the difference between someone who has passed away and a mendicant who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling?”

“When someone dies, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled; their vitality is spent; their warmth is dissipated; and their faculties have disintegrated. When a mendicant has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled. But their vitality is not spent; their warmth is not dissipated; and their faculties are very clear. That’s the difference between someone who has passed away and a mendicant who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.”

:reading:
No contradiction. But you may confuse this with experience you imagine to exist in absence of perception and feeling
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

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If there is no consciousness, then there is no difference between deep sleep, syncope, and Nirodha.
You are just equating a superhuman state to an ordinary experience.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
SteRo
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by SteRo »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:12 pm If there is no consciousness, then there is no difference between deep sleep, syncope, and Nirodha.
no, "the faculties are clear". but this does not describe an experience in that state because experience has objects and therefore consciounesses.
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:12 pm You are just equating a superhuman state to an ordinary experience.
those who assert experience do that
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

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SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:18 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:12 pm If there is no consciousness, then there is no difference between deep sleep, syncope, and Nirodha.
no, "the faculties are clear". but this does not describe an experience in that state because experience has objects and therefore consciounesses.
It makes no sense. :coffee:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
SteRo
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Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by SteRo »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:23 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:18 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:12 pm If there is no consciousness, then there is no difference between deep sleep, syncope, and Nirodha.
no, "the faculties are clear". but this does not describe an experience in that state because experience has objects and therefore consciounesses.
It makes no sense. :coffee:
no problem. there are many phenomena that don´t make sense in the world. Just do it.
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Re: Is there consciousness in Nirodha Samāpatti?

Post by Zom »

Please explain how faculties are clear in Nirodha without consciousness.
They are clear after you emerge from it. And quite clear before you enter as well .)
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